EP. 106: Faithful Therapy with Dr. DeAron Washington

Can Christians embrace both faith and therapy? In this episode, Dr. DeAaron Washington, licensed professional counselor and counseling professor, helps break down the tension many believers feel around mental health care.

We explore faith, psychology, cultural identity, and the rich tradition of lament and hope within the African American church. Dr. Washington also shares how counseling skills like empathy, humility, and self-awareness can strengthen relationships and help us pursue reconciliation across racial, political, and cultural divides.

Special thanks to our sponsors: 

Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Mississippi College, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple Church, Mississippi State University, Real Christian Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:12

This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated to giving our communities practical evidence of the gospel message by helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured for us by living with grace across racial lines. Thanks so much for joining us on this episode of Living Reconciled. I am your host, Brian Crawford, hanging out with my co-host, Nettie Winters. How are you doing today, sir?

SPEAKER_01 0:36

I'm doing great, man. Everything's great. I'm excited to be here, and I'm excited to be your friend.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Excellent. And I'm excited you are my friend. And we got another friend that we're going to introduce in just a moment. But before we get too far, special thanks to our sponsors, Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regents Foundation, Mississippi Christian University, formerly known as Mississippi College, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple, Mississippi State, Real Christian, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life, good friends like Doris Powell, Robert War, and Winners. Thank you for everything that you do. It's because of what you do that we're able to do what we do. And today, what we're doing is we're interviewing a very good friend by the name of Dr. D'Aaron Washington. Dr. D. Aaron Washington is the assistant professor of counseling at Bellhaven University. He is a licensed professional counselor. He is a friend that is thoughtful, that is wise, that is incredibly intelligent. And he draws experience as a clinician, educator, and ministry leader from his experiences, from his friends, from his family, from his work. And we can't wait to glean some of that from him. He uh equips individuals also and couples with practical tools for healthy relationships and meaningful change. Um Dr. Dr. Washington is also the first African-American ECE, I C E E, FT Certified Emotionally Focused Couple Therapist in Mississippi, which is uh something that we want to get in, obviously get more deeply into. Um but but Dr. Washington, man, uh above all things, he's a servant of the Lord Jesus Christ uh who is deeply passionate about the kingdom and deeply passionate about equipping the kingdom um um in terms of emotional, spiritual wellness. And so we're incredibly grateful that he has decided to join us on this podcast. Dear, and how are you doing today, man? Man, I'm good.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

I'm excited to be here, man. I think it's an honor to be on Mission Mississippi's podcast.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Excellent, man. Excellent. We're we're incredibly honored that you would that you would join us. And we want to just start our time, uh, dear friend,

From College Conviction To Calling

SPEAKER_00 2:51

man. If you don't mind, tell us a little bit about your life story in terms of how did you get to where you are right now at Bellhaven University, um, and what's what was the journey uh to this location? But also, um, if you don't mind, take a little time and tell us how uh how this journey has been shaped by your faith in Christ Jesus and how did you uh come to faith in Christ?

SPEAKER_02 3:15

Yeah, yeah, so I I'll I'll start, man. Hopefully I don't take too long doing it. Um, but uh here's the thing, like man, our my mom started taking us to church at about 13 years old. Um and like it was uh I was planted the seeds were planted in a black Baptist church. Um and they didn't they didn't take root yet, you know. I was still there's still some stuff that had to be worked out in me. Um and through that, like man, I spent some years and then I went to college um and joined a uh uh Baptist uh student union, uh, white white campus ministry. Um and I remember one of the meetings where it wasn't even they were open to the Bible, they really just talking about what Jesus had done for them. Um and so I'm just sitting around, I remember sitting in that corner and conviction just hit me, and I'm just like, man, that Jesus that they know, I don't know him. Um and I remember going back to my dorm room and really going to my room, and uh, you know, I didn't I didn't have as as sophisticated language um at that time, and I was just like, Lord, whatever they got, get that to me. Um, and like that was a story of like the Lord really just starting his work in me through his salvation. Um, and from there, like I was saved in college. So this was a time I was also thinking about, man, I was a psychology major at Delta State University, go fight Ogram. Um, and like I was thinking through, hey, I want to I want to do this counseling thing, but I also want to think through like spirituality and religion. Um, I want to make sure I can merge like theology well. And I was like, man, is there a degree that does that? Um that kind of led me to uh pursue my master's at our New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. Um, and I started there with my master's, and like I was like, man, I I love this, I did this, and then some people start telling me, hey, Darren, you should get a PhD. I was like, not me.

SPEAKER_03 5:06

Mm-mm.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

I don't do stuff like that. Um and it was uh one of my pastors said you should get a PhD. It was one of my friends that said you get a my wife said, you should get a PhD or you're wasting your time. And I was like, I'm just gonna decide to believe y'all. Um and I started pursuing it after that. Um, and even thinking through how I wanted to impact the world. I wanted to impact the world through uh the field of counseling. Um as I think through not just in the room, but also just the field. Um, I wanted to have that type of impact. And another thing that kind of motivated that too was like, man, I did not see as many African-American counseling professors. And there was even a part of me that was like, dude, can I even do this? Um, and it was other brothers that I thought, like, hey, we're doing this PhD in in counseling at this institution, where I was like, oh, I can do that. And so from there, man, my dream at one time was like, all right, man, I want to be a professor at uh New Orleans Baptist Elizabeth Seminary. And that came true. I got a chance to kind of do uh that work and impact students in the seminary, and then uh through some circumstances, the Lord like really revealed, hey, our time in New Orleans was was ending. Uh, but all roads were leading back to Mississippi. Um Bellhaven had reached out, some other places had reached out. Um, and then just after going through Bellhaven's process, really thinking about their kind of dream and goal because their county program is new, I was like, man, they are really intentional about like Christ. They're really intentional about putting together a quality academic program. And they uh, yeah, I was just excited. And I was like, hey, the Lord kind of led me back to Mississippi, led me to Bellhaven. Um, and that's where I've been for, I mean, going on my third uh kind of year with them.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Yeah, yeah.

Finding Models And Owning Identity

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Tell me about, tell me, you mentioned something really, really that struck struck me as soon as you said it in terms of you know being a black man um and and and a therapist and and um almost feeling the weight and and and the sense of man, you know, am I gonna how how well am I gonna integrate and fit in in this space and and how capable am I of doing this work in this space in this community? Man, talk to us a little bit more about that in terms of the different uh the different um uh moments of internal conflict that you've faced and how the Lord has been able to kind of help you navigate that and the lessons that you've learned along the way.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

Yeah. I mean, and uh I mean I appreciate you asking about that because like, man, it was something I had to really think through because in my journey in seminary, I did not have many uh minority professors. Like there were there were any, and so like without seeing a model, I was like, am I really trekking into a place that's like foreign that's new that like other people uh have said, hey, we shouldn't go. So I so there was a wrestle in that, but then also in the just the place I was at, like I was reading a lot of scholars, like Christian scholars and different things like that, but there was not always a highlighting of like people who I would resonate with a little bit more uh when it comes to like their experiences. And not saying experiences are are the end all be all, but it I had to come to a point and wrestle and just help people understand. Like I had to understand that, like, hey, good doctrine does not belong to one culture. Yeah, that African Americans have good doctrine. I mean, Africans, African Americans have good doctrine and learning about like Augustine, Origin, Athanasius, or learning about um a Gardner Kevin, Calvin Taylor, an E. V. Heel, or Charles Booth, or even recent people like uh Walter Strickland. Ronald Haynes, and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, all these people, I I I had to learn. And like, so with that, they helped me to sit a little bit more comfortably in my skin. Um, but then not just that, I think it also um helped me to think through, hey, my experience is not um is not unique in a lot of ways. Like there are other people who trek the path, and I think learning and talking to other brothers and sisters like there were uh have been there, like really helped me. Like there's one brother, um his name is Dr. James Hawkins. Um he's a counselor up in Arkansas, but I I saw him kind of go through the PhD like journey as a counselor, and like that really sealed the deal to be like, I can do this. Like, and I I mean I respect this brother highly. And when he graduated, it felt like I graduated too. I'm like, and I was like, I'm right behind you, I'm next. Um just because of that. So there was wrestles of like trying to understand, and so there was also a point, and I'll say this really quick, was like, I had to really go to a point of racial identity, uh, uh racial identity development. Because there were part of me that was like, oh no, no, if I it everything is black, like I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna do my source. I mean, and rightly so. I think that that helped me to kind of really be ten toes down to say, like, all right, if this, if there's good doctrine here, if there's good theology here, like let me go ahead and do uh do the work and find the sources. Right. And so there's a point in center here where like I was.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Bring it to the center, so to speak, so that people can see it.

SPEAKER_02 10:13

Yeah, yeah, no, and there's when I was talking to my professors and saying, hey, I know you want me to do this book, but can I do this book right here? Like I want to, I want to do this book because this book seems like it was a little bit more. And so, yeah, just wrestling through that and like thinking through some of those things, and it made me get like a little bit deeper into the research that helped me to kind of sit a little bit more comfortably in my skin, in my my my tradition.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Yeah, it's it's you know, I hear, I hear like the the there's a there's almost a sense of responsibility oftentimes where you have uh like you mentioned, you have this rich history that's in many ways been unearthed for some communities, or that has been not unearthed, but has been hidden for some from some communities that you want to unearth and bring to the forefront to say, hey, it exists, you know, and so and so there's the tension of, you know, I don't I don't have to do this, but I almost feel a sense of responsibility to do it in order to play my role in bringing this out and unearthing it so that everybody can see that God's gifting is at work in all of these different communities, including some of these communities that don't get as much exposure, you know what I mean? And so, and so it's so like you I I love the fact that there, you know, that you're thinking about it, okay. I don't necessarily have to do it, right? Uh God, God, God's gifting is in all communities, and at the same time, that's precisely why I probably should do it. To make sure that we know that God's gifting is at work in all communities. Am I hearing that correctly?

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Yeah, yeah, man. And I would even say, like, there's not just a scholarship benefit, but also a personal benefit. I think when COVID-19 came around and we were like, I don't know what to do, I don't know how to handle this. Like, man, there were songs, there were there was scripture, there were sermons that kind of came out of my soul from my at from the African-American tradition that helped me to realize that, like, yes, we still hold on to God when we don't know what tomorrow holds. Like, he is the one who can make a way out of no way. He's the one we lift our hands to. We seek him for help because like there's no better, better helper. Like, he's a very present help. And so, like, I would say, yeah, man, there's this sense of like, I felt this uh, I felt this pressure. I'm like, man, I want to give this out. But also, I was like, yeah, I don't have to do this. But then I would say, like, man, it's more, it was more than just the scholarly benefit, more than getting the grades. But I was like, man, this blessed my soul to be able to hold some of these things and see the faith of my forefathers and how they held on to God in such trying times. And I think it's not just a jewel that I want to kind of keep to myself as a jewel. I think the whole church can benefit from. If you feel like, hey, I don't know what to do, I don't know where to go. I tell people, I'm like, you should read African American Christian history because it tells a narrative, it gives a suffering theology that sometimes we don't get um, we don't get to see as clearly.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Yeah, yeah, man. Yeah, yeah. I I think I think oftentimes we are not as exposed to cultures and traditions um and songs and stories that were born that were born and birthed out of Lament. And and and because of that, I feel like there is a significant gap in how we understand what it means to walk with Jesus. You know, um, you know, that with that there there's a richness that's teaching us something when we when we are able to unearth and find those stories that are born out of lament, and when we're, you know, the the the the the the FC Barnes uh rough side of the mountain, you know what I mean? It's you know, um I remember I remember growing up as a kid that there was almost a sort of disdain for, you know, as a young Christian coming uh hearing that in our community. It's like, oh man, you know, rough side of the mountain, it just sounds like too much struggle. Yeah, and it's like, no, no, no, no, no, man. There's some gold, there's some there's some pearls that that are unearthed in the in those uh in those songs and in that tradition that and you're going to need there gonna there's gonna come a time where you're going to need to lean on some of that uh some of that theology as it relates to how do we how do we hold on to God's unchanging hand in the midst of in the midst of storms and the hardships in the midst of trials and tribulations and suffering uh when when when we experience it. And it is inevitable we will all in some shape, form, or fashion um experience it. How do we hold on? Well, there were some elders and there were some people, some forefathers and some some four mothers for that matter, who who went before us, you know what I mean? And they experienced it and they have recorded it and documented it for for our treasure, for our gleaning, for our learning. And so I love the fact that you took such a uh a commitment to walking in that.

Being A Christian Therapist In Minority Spaces

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Um, talk to us a little bit about Christian therapy or a Christian who is doing therapeutic work. You know, uh a Christian that's doing therapeutic, so the space is already confined, right? You're a Christian in in these spaces doing, you know, doing doing um heavy theological uh work in a space that isn't necessarily, you know, in a you know, in a in a space that you're a minority. You're a so you're a black Christian, but you're a black Christian doing therapeutic work, right? As a man, which which even shrinks the space down some more. So talk about how some of that shows up in your life experience in terms of that, in terms of that therapeutic limitation that you see in these contexts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

And so I would say, and Brian, if I don't get to your question, like let me know, but I let me make sure I got it just into that.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think I think Nettie's about, I think Nettie, he was on mute. Jump in, Nettie. I think you're not gonna be.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

I was just gonna say while you while you're doing that, expound some more on this I-C-E-E-F-T uh in terms of you say you're the only African American in the state that has that. How did that fit into what Brian's question have have uh um as he gives it to you? But also when you were talking about the models and the testimonies and those things, as you go into that question, and my question was, and and I think Brian kind of helped me with it, uh, how to ask the question is that as you go into that, is it sometimes we we don't see because we're not looking? Or is it it's not there when we can't see it? That makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

Yeah. Yeah, no, I think there's a place of like going back to like that kind of the history of the African American church of like it's there. We just don't we just don't look for it or look closely at like even to a point of like you think about a Reverend Martin Martin L uh Martin Luther King. Man, I should be I should be able to say that one clearly. But but you think about that to be like, hey, this is a seminary trained person. That like the civil the civil rights movement was a movement that like people were in the scriptures, people were praying. Uh so I think it's that sense, like it's there, it's in people's face sometimes. It's just like, hey, we don't always look at it. And sometimes, and sometimes it's almost like we don't always think about um some of the really deep roots of Christianity in the African American like tradition. Like it's uh Carl Ellis um in his book uh Free at Last, where he talks about, hey, if you are trying to look at the African-American tradition and you are not looking at Christianity, you are doing a poor job of really telling the African American story because you can't tell it without leaning into that. So I so that's so Nettie, that's that's kind of the thing I'll say. Like, yeah, people don't always look at it, but it's it's there, it's it's clear in a lot of ways. Um and sometimes people, and let me let me be careful too. Like, I think there's also a point that people don't know they should look there uh because of the way that they are trained, because the language looks different, the songs look different, the experiences are different. So like they don't they're not always trained to do it, but that doesn't mean they can't. Um so that that's kind of that one question, and I'm gonna move it to the other count question if that's okay. Are we ordered?

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 18:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

And and so Brian, even as you're saying that okay No, I was gonna say when you talk about the king, you know, he talks about doing it spiritually through love. And and people look at that and say, really, there's no place for that in this. This is about revolutionary stuff. This is about uh advocates of civil rights and you know what what Jesus or the gospel got to do with this. And so we miss the whole point of navigating through that and see that story for what it really is, and that uh, you know, um, you were talking about those songs, you know, that's a song that always resonated in my heart. We come this far by faith, leaning on their everlasting. And so sometimes we miss that because we're looking for a model in our minds of expectation. And our minds are telling us to look for something that may not be apparent or may not even be visible in terms of that. But anyway, I I thought as you were talking about King, I just think about he wanted to, he said, you know, uh our only hope is love. Our only hope is love. And you know, you had uh Tom Michael and those guys, man. I, you know, when they was doing, they they finished the march for um Meredith, you know, I think Carmichael and them, they set they set him up because when they got to Greenwood where some of his camaraderie partners and and and followers were, you know, he he hit him with that that uh uh I'm black and I'm proud. And they had talked about not doing that, right? So all of a sudden, he gets the mic, man, and takes the stage and bam, there it is. And and so that got the people excited, that got the people moving. And King is talking about this nonviolent love and gospel and all that because, like, man, you know, they like throwing their hand, like, you know, that's for the that's for the old folks, or that's for the, you know, uh other things, you know, this is real stuff here. So anyway, I thought I just put that, inject that in there. As you move forward, you can relate to.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

Yeah, man, that's a whole mother conversation. I want to go there, but that we we here, we here. We're talking about counseling, counting, we here, we here. Uh but so coming back to like your question, like Brian, that sense of like, man, that coming back and even just those layers of like, yes, that means I'm walking in spaces as a minority, a minority in in a lot of ways. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Um, when it comes to counseling, double, triple, double, triple, quadruple layers of minority.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

Yeah. And so, and so I go in knowing that. I go in knowing that, hey, I'm gonna go in these spaces and like counseling or therapy or different things. Like, there are professional organizations. Like, I'm gonna be in my I'm gonna be in the minority. And so I go in knowing that, like, hey, at the end of the day, whether I can explicitly share the gospel, like, I'm my job is still to embody the wonderful counselor, to embody the fruits of the spirit. That love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness. Gentleness and self-control, I still I'm still bringing that into the room. Yeah. Um, and so even if I'm working with clients and clients are they are like, hey man, I don't want any of spirituality or different things, like it's part of my therapy. I'm still embodying Christ, leaning on the spirit, hoping that, like, hey, he's gonna give me wisdom in these moments. And so even when I'm navigating certain spaces as a minority, I'm still I'm in my on my best days, I'm leaning on the spirit and saying, Lord, you're gonna have to show me how to do this. And even I'm ready to have those harder conversations because I've had to have those hard conversations with there have been cultural issues that have come into professional organizations where people had ideas about Christianity that we had to have some conversation about, be like, hey, this is how I kind of see these things. Um, this is how I view this, and this is no shade. This is not me saying I hate like you or anything else, it's just saying, like, hey, I see this differently, and trying to make space for us to still coexist, be loving toward each other, even though we fiercely disagree in some ways. And so, like, I go into those spaces knowing that, hey, that's a possibility, but I also I go in like reflecting Christ and like, yeah, I just go in. So, and even coming back to like that, that kind of certification, like that certification is like requires a lot of training, a lot of supervision and different things like that. And it's a certificate, it's a uh emotionally focused like couples therapy, uh, which is what it's called just really a model for kind of working with couples where there's still there are minorities that are slowly like coming into these spaces and then slowly get into that space of like certification and slowly get into the spaces a little bit higher than that. Um but like yeah, it's still one of those things. I'm like, hey, I've yeah, the first in Mississippi to be like, hey, this is kind of the when you think about counseling just for a moment, it'd be like, hey, this mostly focused couples there is kind of gold standard for like counseling. Um so like it's backed by research. Um it's been in the game a long time. Um and so like that was important to me to be like, hey, I I I want to be, I want to make sure I'm doing this correctly. But also I my credentials, my licensure, my PhC, all is for like, even for me to look back at students and say, like, hey, you can do this too. Look at people who are around who may look like me, have similar background, and be like, hey, you can do this too, and I can help you and walk you through this if this is what you want to pursue. Because once again, I didn't have those models kind of growing up, and hopefully, not that I'm putting that whole weight on me, like I got to be the greatest person ever, so everybody can look at me, but it's just like, hey, no, I'm gonna do some things, and that's gonna be okay. And then, like, if people say, hey, I don't know if I can do that, I can say, Yes, you can, I can show you how.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Yeah, yeah. Uh, Dr. Washington, man, when we talk about we talk about therapy, mental health

Making Room For Therapy In Faith

SPEAKER_00 25:30

care, um uh especially from the perspective and a vantage in the vantage point of a Christian, uh, to those that are still in some ways uh struggling to make sense of it all, and struggling to bridge, uh, to make the leap, right, between the the these worlds of uh spiritual, uh theological, uh, biblical, doctrinal to emotional, uh therapeutic, and you know, because there's been a lot of critiques and criticisms about even people going as far as saying that type of work really has no footing in Christian spaces. It has no ground in Christian spaces. Uh what would what would be your uh what would be your counsel to them? How how do you help them make sense of this and say, no, there is room for this in Christian spaces?

SPEAKER_02 26:29

Yeah, yeah. I mean, so a book recommendation I have is a book I read in my PhD is called uh Pastoral Counsel by uh Thomas C. Holden. Uh so here's the thing he does in this, he pulls out these early church fathers and helps her to see that actually the church has been talking about the soul for a long time, which means they've been talking about psychology much much longer than a Freud or Wunt or Ericsson and all these classical theolog uh all these classical psychological like uh figures. The church has been thinking about this a long time, and not just thinking about it in abstract principles, like they're thinking about how do I care for the soul. They're thinking about what I mean, even to the point they they talk about, hey, empathy and accurate listening and all these things, like we can go back and find this in like early church fathers, um, as they're kind of doing this. So I tell people, like, one, we've been thinking about this a long time. And we should actually be the best at this because we think about how God has created us as relational beings, and as God has created the human soul, and he's kind of helped us think through as we look at kind of characters, but even to the point we look at how Jesus interacted with people. Like, there's a lot of things when I'm teaching my students. I'm like, hey, look at look at Jesus and look at the questions that he asked. Look how skillful he is. And so I would say, and and let me even just approach like those are like, hey, I just don't feel like it has a room in the in the in the Christian spaces. And I think we must be very careful in like, yes, there have been some ways where um some in some in the psychology field and realm of different things like that have, I mean, even classical figures have been anti-Christianity in a lot of ways in just the writing and the talking and different things like that. So there have been some of that. So I gotta acknowledge that because that's just that's part of history. But I do think, hey, there's more to be considered there, particularly as we think about our uh, this is the way I kind of frame it like the doctrine of man. I think we have a we have the best overview of like what man is, but it's also thinking about this micro doctrine. Okay, how do we work with people? And the Bible doesn't give us this exhaustive like model of how we do it. But here's the thing God, through common grace, had given people like understanding on how things work, and we ought to utilize some of that uh in how we do this. Like it's uh as we like I wrote, uh I was talking to some people, they're like, but but we should we use the that's another debate for another day. We we're not gonna go there. But I but I will say it's like it's we talk about how we use human wisdom. How do we utilize human wisdom to help people? That's what I would say the best of psychology is is like, hey, we're utilizing human wisdom. When you're a Christian therapist, I you're utilizing human wisdom, but also you utilize the wisdom of God. Um and you're thinking about what does holistic healing come about come through. So like I would say, yes, there's some things we can look at and say, hey, I got some critiques of psychology, but I do think there's a point of like they've done this microscopic like view of man and what works with men that I think we ought to pay a little bit of attention to. Um and I would say, like, hey, if I'm just being just very uh simplistic, I think about, you know, what about doctors? I mean, they're taking a lot of knowledge that is that doesn't have Christian foundation and use them to help people. And I would say counsel takes that to kind of help uh people too.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we we we the all of our mechanics are not Christian. Um, and we can and we can value the insights that they have mechanically in terms of how vehicles work. All of like you mentioned, all of our medical uh uh surgeons, orthopedic surgeons are not Christians, and yet we can value the medical counsel that they provide to us and the insights. Um and so the same thing can be said in terms of how the mind functions and works uh ultimately is that is that you know the Lord, all truth is God's truth. And so, you know, so there is a sense in which it is submitted, at least in the way I process this, it's it you know, truth submitted to the Lordship of Jesus Christ uh is is truth that can be welcomed and embraced in Christian circles. And so and so that's one thing. But then, like you mentioned, I think I think it's important to mention it again that that that that the Christian tradition has been thinking deeply about matters of the soul long before, you know, some of like you, some of the classical, you know, um psychological and therapeutic uh sources that that we lean on in terms of the science and psychology community. Um, you know, you can go all the way back to just the wisdom literatures of the Bible. Yeah. The book of Job and Psalms and Proverbs and Songs of Solomon, um, Ecclesiastes. These books are deeply, deeply devoted to an exploration of the soul and and how and how the mind is working as it relates to uh our relationship with God and and and and what's happening in us as as we as we navigate through that relationship. And so it's very much been a part of our part of the Christian journey and a Christian story, it's just oftentimes gone unmined in some in some of our in some of our um in some of our discipleship. And so and so I think I think one of the things that Christian, Christian therapists that are that are rightly submitted to the Lordship of Jesus and at the same time take their take their craft very seriously and dig deeply. Uh one of the gifts that they bring to to the body of Christ is they help us navigate that and help us make those connections, so to speak. Um and so and so I and so I treasure that. I'm deeply, deeply, deeply uh um appreciative of that. And then there and then there was one thing my wife, of course, who's a clinician, um, mentioned to me uh years ago in some of her training that I never forgot as it relates to something that you said a moment ago, where she said, you know, everybody that she she was taught that everybody that comes into your counseling room and sits in that counselor's chair will and should have an encounter with God. Now, whether or not they are proselytized in that moment, right? In terms of they might say, no, no, no, I don't want to hear that Jesus stuff or that type of deal. Okay, then you know we're gonna honor their wishes. But that does not mean that they should not have an encounter with God, because you are there and that you are bringing with you the spirit and all of his fruit and all of his gifting at operation and at work in you. And so, as you mentioned, the love, joy, peace of God, the the patience and long-suffering, the kindness, gentleness, you know, all of those things should be evident. The self-control, all of those things should be evident in you as you are navigating with that, with that client uh in their journey. And so they still should have an encounter with God when they are engaged with the people of God in the spaces that God has assigned them to. Um and so and so I appreciate I appreciate your commitment because it just echoes some of the things that I've heard from from other Christian counselors. When you turn real quick because we we got just a few minutes, but let's turn real quick towards reconciliation, man.

Reconciliation Through Cultural Humility

SPEAKER_00 34:00

How does reconciliation uh navigating divides in our culture and therapeutic care, mental health, emotional intelligence? How do those topics align? How do they connect? Where do you see some linkages between the topic of reconciliation and some of the things that you're dealing with in the mental health space in the space of the mind and the heart? Ooh, Brian, you're trying to get a mouthful. That's why you're here, man, because we we need to hear from you.

SPEAKER_02 34:39

So it's one of those things now.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

I was gonna add to this dilemma that you find yourself in with Brian. I mean, we we we we're touching on these areas, you say that's another topic for another time. Maybe this is too, but immediately when I see your credentials, I see Candace, I see others that in the field that you're in, I think about, as a pastor, I think about when people come into my office and and I start talking up to them about uh referring to somebody like you. Well, man, ain't crazy. Ain't nothing wrong with me. Why do I need to go see a counselor? What's up with that? And and it's it's in the African American community, for me, my experience, is that it seems like to refer to some kind of mental health issue or some kind of issue, some kind of problem from your childhood, some kind of abuse of whatever. That's taboo, man. And and and you know, and you're tipping on these uh ice, you know, this that staying ice when it comes to kind of navigate through that. Help help me as a pastor and as a you know, you know, a non-professional counselor navigate through some of that stuff to get them into your chair.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

Yeah. I mean, and and I think Nettie, you're probably know something like really important to be like, man, there's a stigma about coming to counseling that we gotta like acknowledge. I mean, I think like really acknowledging, like, man, this is hard. I because what happens is you probably heard, okay, you just gotta be crazy out of your mind, like to be it to go to counseling. Um, but one of the things I I try to frame it in, like, people like, hey, what have you, like first asking them, hey, what have you tried? Like, and really just hearing that for a moment to be like, hey, what have you tried? And then like, where did that leave you? Like, and then after that, to be like, hey, so it seems like you tried this, these things ain't worked out. So it sounds like this might be something that it might be worth trying. This is not a space for you to just, for them to just be like, hey, you've lost your mind to different things like that. This is just a space for you to get help in a place that you find yourself stuck in. You find yourself in in repetitive cycles over and over again. But even to the point that we're thinking about just from this pastoral lens for a moment, that like we all have to acknowledge that when sin came into the world, it disrupted my relationship with God and man, with man and man, but me, myself, and I, and I don't always get along at times. And helping people to understand that, like, hey.

SPEAKER_01 36:59

Slow down, slow down, Dr. Watch, slow down, slow down. You you you said something that I think you ought to take it very slow. Me, myself, and I have challenges. Man, unfold that just a little bit and don't move through it too fast, man, because I think that's where some of the problem lies.

SPEAKER_03 37:16

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

In fact, I think it's all right there, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

Yeah. But when I say me, myself, and I don't get along, it means my body doesn't function as like it would pre-fall. My mind doesn't stay in the places that I want it to stay. My emotions like often are to and fro, and often I can find myself in these very uncomfortable emotions and not and not know my way out, how to get out of them. So there's a point of like, man, how I'm made to function, like it just doesn't work out in a way. But not just that, like when we think about if I am not functioning in that way, if there's imperfection in me, guess what? That impacts my relationships. I can't show up as a father, as a mother, as a husband, as a wife, um, in the ways that I really desire to, because there's something that's happening inside of me mentally, emotionally, and even spiritually, that I need to address before I'm able to kind of really reflect Christ to the best of my ability and counseling that space where no, they're not your pastor. No, they they don't want to give you spiritual guidance, but they do want to help to kind of unclog some of the places that are clogged, whether it be emotionally, um, it be emotionally or psychologically, and and sometimes, sometimes physically, but I mean, as the doctor that kind of helps with those things mostly. But just they want to help you with those, set goals, uh, to think about all right, how do we collaborate together to get you there so that you can function in the way that God desires you to function? So that you reflect him and his character in ways that, like, hey, you're okay with it, and life becomes more manageable at that point. And who doesn't want a more manageable life?

SPEAKER_00 39:02

That's good, Doc. That's good, God. That's good. So take us home, man. Talk to us a little bit about how it lands. And, you know, going back, going back to what we were talking about as it relates to the the reconciliation. And I think you're already getting there because you're kind of talking about, hey, how this impacts our relationships, right? And so, and so how how go deep go deeper with us and talk about how this impacts the divides we experience and how this impacts, you know, the fears that we have as it relates to race and color and ethnicity and culture and and and the the political apprehensions, the the the tensions that we face. Talk to us a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Yeah. And so, Brian, the way I kind of frame some of this is that when I think about reconciliation, I think about unity, I think about, I think about for me, there's a prerequisite for those things. And for me, as I think through, this is from my researcher lens, but this is also my kind of theological lens in a sense of like there's a cultural humility that's required for us to have unity. There's a when I say cultural humility, I'm saying there's an accurate assessment of us, other, and God. We need to, and that impacts our disposition toward culture, disposition toward other. And so I there's a point of me like, man, I try to teach my students that I try to embody that as I think about relationships with church members of like, what does it look like to have this culture of humility? And when I say cultural humility too, let me give you just a nerdy definition for a moment. It's it's a lifelong dedication to critical self-assessment that impact that has positive impact on like others. There's an interpersonal like aspect of it, there's an intrapersonal aspect of it. I gotta assess myself, I gotta assess others and think about my relationship and how me as a cultural being kind of shows up. Uh, and I and I think about that in a sense of like how we handle culture. I think about Paul. Paul um is a good example of this because you go to Philippians and what does Paul say? Paul said, I'm a Jew of Jews, I am a Pharisee of Pharisees, I was born on the eighth day, I'm a tribe of Benjamin. Look at Paul giving us like his cultural identity. But at the end of the day, he this is a critical self-assessment because at the end of that, he says, but I count that all as lost. Like he's prioritizing, putting in the right place. But also, Paul does another thing, but like he says, I'm gonna come the strong to the strong, the weak to the weak, so I might reach some. And then not just that, Paul utilizes his cultural identity when he needs it and utilized it in strategic ways because in Acts, he's like, hey, let me let them know I'm a Roman citizen. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, and so it's one of those things of like, man, when I think about uni, I think about that, I think about the prerequisite of cultural humility, and I try to think through, hey, what does that look like in my church relationship? What does it look like in my relationship? What does it look like in like just with my students? And it's really just causing me to think through like an um accurate assessment of myself. But then as you think about Brian, you asked about, all right, so what about the political divides and the things that are happening now? What happens is that and this framework is coming more from my therapeutic lens and then also from some work of uh Dr. James Hawkins and his like program called Healing Conversation, where like we approach conversations and we don't do that kind of critical self-assessment. We are good at looking at others across the lane, and when anything that they say, we automatically throw up our defenses because as a part of like when they're saying something, we take offense to it rather than trying to have empathy and compassion understanding. We respond to like we respond to kind of rebut rather than respond to whether we just sit there and listen and understand. So when I think about this counseling, I think about how do I open up space because I do this in my couples' work. How do I open up space? But we don't put up our defenses, we don't lean into the narratives that we've kind of we we've kind of inherited in a lot of ways, but we and we utilize our protective strategies or our defenses with flexibility in the sense like I can put the defenses up, I can take it down. But what happens in a lot of conversations, like we are so rigid in our defenses, so rigid in our like partiality, so rigid in us talking about each other and not loving each other. We are so quick. If I just use it really quickly, you know, the disciples, you know, Jesus, they told Jesus, hey, somebody out there casting out demons in your name. And they went at the church meeting, like they went at the business. I didn't see them get baptized or anything like that. And Jesus says, you know what? If they're not against us, they for us. And so many times, the disciples had this disposition, they're quicker to make foes than friends. And I think that's what happens in some of these conversations. We're so quick to make foes than friends. And um I think that's the thing that kind of gets it gets us stuck. And those are the things I think about when I think about counseling and its overlap here is like, hey, I'm trying to do relational work. Um, and a lot of my work is relational work, but helping people like have that cultural humility, critical self-assessment, use their defenses with flexibility so they might have like unity.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah, man. We are so often looking for, without even realizing it, we are so often looking for competition rather than connection. And we are we are communicating from that posture of competition. Let me win this argument, let me prepare my rebuttal, they're wrong, I'm right, they're over there, I'm over here, they're on this side, I'm on this side. Um, rather than, like you said, man, that's an image bearer. Uh, that's a child of the king. Uh that's a fellow for in in many instances, that's a fellow Christian, right? Who has Submitted their lives to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. And so rather than looking for competition amongst us, uh, let me let me establish and build connection and cultivate connection. And that's just a totally different posture to engage and interact and conversations. And so much of that starts, like you said, starts with what's going on in me. What's going on in me that I that I step into conversations looking for the comp the looking for the competition first rather than the connection first? That's not that's not their issue. That's my issue that I got that needs exploration. Yeah. Yeah, that's on me. That's on me. That's on me. That's on me. Dr. Washington, man, how can people keep up with you and keep up with your work and how the Lord is using you?

SPEAKER_02 45:23

Yeah, I mean,

How To Follow Dr. Washington

SPEAKER_02 45:24

uh man, I'm out here on these Facebook streets. You can look there. Um, I also uh write every now and then at my Substack called uh Salt and Sankofa. Uh so Salt and Sankofa on Substack. And yeah, those are probably the best ways to kind of keep up with what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_00 45:41

Unless they want to register for your class, one of your classes at Bell Haven.

SPEAKER_02 45:44

Yeah, unless unless you want to come and get a whole counseling degree at Bellhaven University, we welcome you. Uh the doors are wide open all the time. Uh excellent.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

Now, do you take on clients?

SPEAKER_02 45:58

Yes, I do take on clients. I'm mostly uh Yeah, so if you if people want to look me out for like clients, I mean you can search strength in counseling. Um I'm in Clinton, Mississippi. Um, but yeah, so yeah. I and I mostly do at this point, at this stage, Billhouse my full thing, but I mostly do couples. Like that's kind of where my uh my heart is, my passion is, and then just like hey, where I think um I can be the most helpful in this season. Excellent.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

Money couples, huh? So if I need to come in, I gotta bring my wife with me, man.

SPEAKER_02 46:31

Yep, yeah, yep. That's that's where I'm at right now. That's where I'm at. I do mostly couples. And because they're not much, I mean, that's a whole nother thing. Like, they're not much African-American male couple service. Thank you, brother. This is this has been enriching for me. Thank you. Oh, thank you guys.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

Yeah, doc, man, we appreciate it. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for your wisdom. Uh, we've gleaned a lot, and uh hopefully for our listeners, you've gleaned as well. By the way, um, please feel free to like, share, and subscribe to Living Reconcile. Um, tell your friends about it. And you can go to any podcast app, search Living Reconcile by Mission Mississippi, and you'll find uh this podcast. And we would love for you to spread the word about it. Uh, we're interviewing great Mississippians, um, and even sometimes folks outside of Mississippi who have great stories to share with us around faith, life, life, vocation, and reconciliation. Um, this has been wonderful, man. It's been good to interview a good friend, Dr. De'Aaron Washington, on behalf of him and my good friend Nettie Winners. This is Brian Crawford signing off saying, God bless. God bless. Thanks for joining Living Reconciled. If you would like more information on how you can be a part of the ongoing work of helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured, please visit us online at missionmississippi.org or call us at 601-353-6477. Thanks again for listening.