EP. 102: Right Relationships with Dr. Daniel Henley

What does it mean to live reconciled when relationships are strained and trust is hard to find? In this episode, Dr. Daniel Henley shares practical wisdom on building “right relationships” with God and others through humility, forgiveness, and grace.

From personal lessons about anger and self-awareness to insights on racial reconciliation, marriage, and Christian leadership, Dr. Henley challenges us to stop waiting for things to get easier and start doing the work of reconciliation today. This conversation is a powerful reminder that the church is called not just to talk about unity, but to live it.

Special thanks to our sponsors: 

Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Mississippi College, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple Church, Mississippi State University, Real Christian Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters.

Transcript

Welcome To Living Reconciled

SPEAKER_01 0:12

This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated to giving our communities practical evidence of the gospel message by helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured for us by living with grace across racial lines. Hey, thanks so much for joining us on this episode of Living Reconciled. I'm your host, Brian Crawford, hanging out with my good friend Nettie Winters. Sir, how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_02 0:36

I'm wonderful, man. I'm glad I've moved up to the class with your good friend, man. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Not just good, man. Incredible. Incredible. Incredible, man.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Incredible. I am incredible. Impressed that I am your incredible friend.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Brilliant, brilliant friend, wise friend, sage-like friend. Nettie winners. Nettie winners.

Sponsors And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:58

I want to give a quick shout out to our uh sponsors, folks like Nissan, uh, St. Dominic's, um, folks like uh uh Atmos Energy Regions Foundation, Mississippi, Christian University, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple Church, Pine Lake Church, Mississippi, Real Christian Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Light Church, Miss Doris Powell, Robert Ward, and Winners. Thank you all so much. Um there is not, uh we can't even give you the whole list. There's a few more, but we just want to say thank you so much for everything that you do. It's because of what you do. We're able to do what we do. And today, what we're doing is we are talking to a good friend from Memphis, Tennessee, Dr. Daniel Henley. Dr. Daniel Henley is the husband of Miss D. Henley. Uh, he is a father, he is a pastor, he is a community leader, um, he is the director of D Dan Ministry, um, the Church Developers Network, the Right Relationship Center, which he co-founded with his wife uh Dee, the pastor of Journey Christian Church, there in the uh Greater Memphis area. Uh Pastor Dan and his wife Dee are residents of Cordova, Tennessee, which is a Memphis suburb. I'm sure we'll hear a little bit about that. And Pastor Dan is passionate about reconciliation. He's passionate about marriages, he's passionate about community uh development in the urban context, um, in the urban core, bringing people together to see uh brighter futures for our cities, and Memphis uh being the city in which Pastor Dan is primarily located. But you can find him all over the deep south, uh, places like Alabama and Texas and Mississippi doing the work of the ministry. And so we are incredibly delighted to have Pastor Dan and incredibly excited to glean from his wisdom. Brother, how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_00 2:49

I am doing well. I want to thank you so much for this opportunity and this privilege. And wow, I didn't know I was doing so much, but I guess we are, and we are excited about it. I'm happy to be on with your good friend and my good dear friend as well, Nettie Leather. He is a blessing. So many he has blessed us, and we wouldn't be doing what we're doing without him. He's given us wisdom over the years, and I'm very grateful. He was a very good friend of my father, too, James and me. They go way back. They went way back. My father was gone home to be with the Lord, but Nettie's still here. Hallelujah. Amen.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Well, I was hoping that some kind of way, Brian and all his introduction didn't bring out the Muslim aspect of your life is that you're from Mississippi, man. I weren't in the future that that happened.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Amen. Born and raised in love, Mississippi. The first network that we set up outside of Memphis was in Mississippi. And I'm so grateful that we have a church development network, Mississippi. I know that we've taken a little subadical, but uh, we're back at it. We're gonna do Oxford and Vicksburg. We're gonna continue to do Jackson. My brother will be going with us to Dallas as well, but he has a uh uh what do you call it? Uh uh a vacation Bible school.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Oh, yes, sir.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

VVE's been doing forever. That that is phenomenal. So I'm just grateful for Mississippi. I love Mississippi.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Amen. Amen. Amen. And Mississippi loves the Henleys.

Where Right Relationships Begin

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Absolutely. And I want to start, I want to start our time out, Pastor, by, by, by picking your brain a little bit. Um, you are passionate about relationships. You know, over and over and over again, I was at your conference there uh last uh last fall. Um the right relationships conference is what you call it. You're passionate about right relationships. I'm sure this passion had to come from somewhere. Where do you um where do you begin? Where does your passion for right relationships start in your life story?

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Well, first of all, thank you so much for that. Right relationships came from God. And I got a revelation that everybody probably has, but it became real to me when God said, Love me with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself. And it encompasses all of the law and all of so all of that stuff was on those two clothes lines, if you will. Closed line of loving God, and then another clothesline of loving your neighbor, loving each other as we love ourselves. That's where the secret sauce is.

SPEAKER_03 5:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

But once I got that revelation, I started living into it. And all the good stuff is right there. Yeah. It's in relationships. All of the challenges that we face and the answers that we face, they're right there in those relationships. That's why God tells us things like to forgive. Now, forgive is forgiving is one of the hardest things, but boy, when you get into that thing, especially when you forgive those who despitefully try to use you, do you wrong, that it's people that are hard to forgive. Oh man, there is so much anointing in that that you'll get that you can find no other place. I got a revelation of it, so I started living into it. And now, man, I enjoy it so much. God has given us influence everywhere, everywhere we go. You know how the Bible says you go place ain't gonna need no money. Happening. I mean, it's it's amazing once we get in right relationships, first with God and then with one another. Man, I saw my daddy do it. I saw him do it with Nettie. I did it with Nettie. Yeah, no matter what. I got I did it, I got a guy talk about sometimes that fired me three years ago. I'm still in right relationship with him. Yeah, he's still my friend. And I say that to say we don't have to have a bad situation and call it the end. Don't have to be that way. It could be different if we allow God to train us up and teach us about these right relationships. So I'm I'm grateful for the revelation uh having it in my own home with my wife of 41 years, been married to Miss D for 41 years, and she's my queen, and boy, has she taught me a lot. You know, Ms. D used to tell me things like it's not what you say, it's how you say it. Yes. Little things like that, not knowing that the way I said it was hurting the relationship. Yes. No more. I said, I'm speaking the truth. But I said it in such a way that wasn't very loving and very kind. And uh Ms. D has helped me a lot with that. So, yeah, right relationships and mean, we we get along real good.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Amen. Amen. You know, uh two passages of scripture come to mind, uh, Pastor, as I as I think about it, as I think about what you're saying around right relationships. Of course, the one that you referenced, uh, which is uh Matthew 22, and in terms of love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, uh, and then love your neighbor as yourself. Of course, pulling from the Old Testament, Deuteronomy and Leviticus, Deuteronomy having love the Lord, uh, Leviticus having love your neighbor. But but Jesus says, like you said, upon these two hang all the law. Prophets and law. That's it. All the prophets. Everything is wrapped up into building and conditioning us to love God and love neighbor. That's that's what it all leads to. That's what it all ends on, and and and that's what it all culminates on. But then I heard you say something just a second ago that really stood out to me about how um uh Sister D said it's not always what you say, but it's but it's how it's how you say it. And I'm reminded of uh Proverbs 25 and 15. It says, with patience a ruler may be persuaded, but a soft tongue will break a bone. A soft tongue will break a bone. You know, oftentimes we think it's the hard tongue. You know, a lot of times people say, man, they're not listening to me, so I'm gonna get even uh more aggressive. Right. Yeah, I'm gonna get angry or I'm gonna get more agitated in my tone, and then I'm gonna break through. And here the here the what here the wisdom literature tells us. No, it's actually the exact opposite. Yes. That we can communicate a thing, but we can communicate a thing with just the right whimsical or whimp whim and just the right um attitude and tone of voice that we can break through. And so um, so yeah, I love the wisdom that Sister D is articulating. I love the wisdom that you've articulated about how everything hangs on uh the law, uh everything hangs on love of God and love of neighbor. Um Nettie the Great, what do you think about what do you think about Daniel Henley's uh encouragement to us, man?

SPEAKER_02 9:34

You know, when I think about Dan Hentley and and uh right relationships, ever since I've known him, you know, um, in fact I met him at one of the CCD conferences in uh Dallas, Texas. Yeah. And uh he was there seeking, you know, right relationships. Yeah. He was there seeking right relationships. So I I'm not surprised about the things, the work, and things that he does because, you know, he said God gave him that. You know, Dan, the the difference in what I see in you and what God gives others is that you applied it. Amen. You obeyed it. You know, we get visions and dreams and things, many oftentimes people talk about what God said, but then there's no evidence where I have obeyed or applied what God has given us. So I commend you for doing that. And uh, you know, we're all about relationships as well. So right relationships is is part of what God, the DNA God put in us as part of that. So uh I commend you as you go forward in uh right relationships and doing those things that you know God has called you to do and at heart for doing that. And I know that your brother James and your daddy. Yep. How can I say this? It's in the blood, man. Not only in the blood of Jesus Christ, it's in the blood of being a Henley.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

I love you, and I appreciate that. I actually reached out to my brother this morning. My brother is James L. Henley Jr. He's a pastor down there. He was a chapter 13 trustee, a lawyer, accountant. But he's my big brother. And I always say I got the best big brother on the planet. And I mean that. Not only because I only have one brother, but because he's the best. And I love he's actually speaking at a conference this week, and um changed up my calendar so I could be there. And even if it's asked for to see him speak and come back to Memphis, I love him that much. But what Nettie said, and you too, Brian, I had an elder once at our church when we first started it 30 years ago or whatever.

Kindness Over Being Right

SPEAKER_00 11:43

And he and his wife had an issue, huge issue, because quite honestly, they come from Dallas. He wrote a book on this, so it's not anything I'm saying that's out there. Right. Sure. And uh she had cheated with the pastor of that church and sent them away to Memphis. And boy, he was bitter and angry and resentful. I get it, by the way. Yeah. But he would always punish her publicly in every conversation. And now what he was saying was true. It really was. But it wasn't kind. Now never forget telling them because the Lord had to minister to them. I said, Brother, if you have to choose between being right and being kind, choose kindness every time. Now that was hard. But to this day, he says that that's the thing that changes marriage. Because the Bible never says that love is right. The Bible says that love is patient. Love is kind. That's right. Relationship stuff. When we get to that place where we're doing what the Bible says, we don't always need to be right. He didn't need to be right. I need to love him regardless. The Bible tells us to love our wives, husbands, it tells the wife to respect her husband. Well, whether my wife is respecting me or not, it doesn't change. God told me to love her. Whether I'm loving her or not doesn't change that God told her to respect me. As we're obedient to the word of God, man, that's where the secret sauce is. Yeah, yeah. That's the secret sauce. So, yeah, these right relationships are real. Nettie, I wanted to honor him and respect him because number one, he knew my dad, my dad loved him. Well, I fell in love with him, and he helped me. I I didn't do it for him to help me, but man, he's helped me so much. When I was up against it, I would always call Nettie. And he would tell me in a loving way, either what to do or he would pray with me. But sometimes, you know, we don't know what to do. We know to pray. And he would pray with me, man. And I I'm standing here today and and and things are going so well for us. God is opening so many doors, but it ain't always been this way. Right. Yes up. We've gone through some stuff. Right. And you need those right relationships as you're going through things to get you through. Right. And then when you get to this level, you want to make sure that you're giving back. And boy, we're trying our best to give back, and we're grateful for that.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

You know, Dan, you you talk about being fired and see having the right relationship with the person that fired you. Oh, yeah. Um, you know, I believe it's more rewarding to restore the relationship than it is to resolve the issue.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Oh, that's good.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

You know, I I I believe that if in right relationships, the issues will be resolved when you have right relationships. And I think many times, and oftentimes we put the issue, the project, the program, the money, all of those things over relationships. Like you were talking about the past and his wife and all that, but you know, you know, the just just having right relationships is it, you know. Uh maybe your firing was like a few people I've had to fire in my lifetime. And man, I I see him years later or afterwards, and one guy went out and just completely out of his way to let me know the best thing ever happened to him was nearly the day you fired me. It projected my career and my direction in a way that I never could imagine if I'd have stayed where I was. So, you know, he was in the right, he was in the wrong hole. You know, you know, somebody said, well, you know, you're a square block and you're trying to fit into a round hole. Maybe he's a round hole fit into a square block, but it was, he says that. So oftentimes we don't, we don't uh we don't understand the powerful connection of relationships. We call the right relationships because you know we there, you know, that there's some wrong relationships as well. But you know, we don't understand that. And Jesus, Jesus just spent all his time building relationships. That's it. The whole deal. And so I see it as as as you know, we need to, you know, stay connected in the relationship. And and Jesus insinuated that in so many. He says before you pull the mock out of your brother's eye, you ought to get that plank out of your own eye.

Getting Fired And Facing Anger

SPEAKER_00 16:42

You ought to, you know, it's so let me piggyback off that because me being fired was the best thing that could ever happen to me. Because literally, the next six months, I went and finished my doctoral degree, I've been working on it for six years. I got more done in six months than I did in the whole first six years. So it took me six years and six months to get a doctoral degree.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

So you got so mad as as getting fired, you just got it. No, I'm only kidding. I'm on a kitty.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

No, no, no. I had plenty of time because I do a lot. I wake up at midnight and I wake, I'd be all day studying, doing getting my work done. But watch this. I also took, watch this now, an anger management class for 10 weeks. It was one of the best classes I could have ever taken because I didn't know I was so angry. You see, the guy that fought me was a very powerful white man. He was a friend, very powerful. And he would always tell me, say, Dan, the anger that you have, you can't play at this level with that anger. I thought he was just a white man trying to manipulate me. Right? But he was, he was a dear friend. When I went through that class, because most people will tell you, said Dan, I've never seen you angry. I can't believe you went through a class. When I told one friend I was doing the class, he said, Are you teaching the class? I said, No, no, no, I'm in the class. I'm a student. He said, But I've never seen you angry. But watch this. I said, You haven't, but guess who has seen me angry? My wife.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

And God showed me through her that I need to take this class.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

People close to the city.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

God's doing the best thing that I could have ever done. Because I got to see me. I got to take the plank out of my own eye.

SPEAKER_03 18:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

I even told my friend, his name is David. That's the one that fired me. I said, Man, I'm going to be a better friend to you, man. Because I knew how to be a better friend. I didn't know how to. I was angry. And I was resentful, and some of them because those powerful white men who used to try to manipulate me. I wouldn't allow that. I was going to get do because I didn't care if they fired me or not. That was my attitude, right? Fire me. Because I'm going to do what I'm going to do because I need to speak truth to power. Now, God has helped me with that. Helped me a lot, man. He's a dear friend. I'm grateful for him, and thankful that he fired me. He loved me enough to fire me. See, that's a whole nother attitude. Grace and truth. That's a whole nother attitude. Grace and truth.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

The fusion between grace and truth. That truth can sometimes call us to do hard things, but if grace is, if grace is tied to those hard things, then the output of that can still be relationship, reconciliation, and love. Because even if a hard thing is done, but it but it's done in a way where I know that it's being done because you care about me. Or even if we don't agree, we still know that we care about one another. You can still build something off of that. And even and even the ideal of talking about anger, uh, you know, Chip Dodd is a uh Christian therapist, Christian psychologist that that uh my wife loves and I and I and I I I love as well. But one of the things that Chip Dodd specializes in is these eight feelings. He talks about that at the core of uh every human being, there's eight emotions, there's eight, there's eight feelings. And of course, we know the feelings can be more complex than that, but at the core. And one of those feelings he talks about is anger. He says, hey man, we we we feel anger. What we do with anger is what makes the difference. And so because because all anger is, is a dim is a reflection that you care about something. You get angry ultimately because you care. So what you do with that, whether it's if you if you it if you end up in the impairment of anger, then you then you end up bold um you know like a bull in a china shop, wrecking everything in your life. Wrecking everything. Yeah, you end up in pride, you end up in depression, you end up in bad places and spaces when you don't know what to do with that anger. But when you know how to use that anger and and allow it to be an indicator that I care about this moment, I care about what's happening right now, then the gift of anger is passion. Because you recognize, wait a second, I care. That's why, that's why, that's why this frustrates me. Jesus, when he was in the temple, he was angry, but he was angry because he had zeal for the house of God. Well, that's so he cared. He cared about what was happening in the house of God, and he cared about what was happening with God's people. And so, and so oftentimes what anger management is teaching us is teaching us how to redirect what we care about, redirect the emotions of how we care towards productive things, you know. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

And so, I'm sorry, jump in. Similar to what I did with they're getting that doctorate degree. That's rechanneled that anger. Passion. There's a book. I want that book that you said, and then there's another book by Desmond Tutu. Mm-hmm called The Book of Forgiving. I would recommend that book to everybody. He wrote it along with his daughter, and it is an amazing book. Book, the book of forgiving. Yeah. Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Yeah. Amen. Amen.

Why We Avoid Hard Conversations

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Talk to us a little bit about uh Pastor the experiences that you've had, because again, you've been in reconciliation space, you've been to diverse spaces, you've been in marriage spaces and and and and helping couples heal. Talk to us about some of the challenges that you see, some of the hurdles that people experience as it relates to uh what makes it difficult for people. We've already talked about the healthiness and the goodness that's in these things. What makes it difficult? If it's so good and so healthy, why aren't people doing it?

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Yeah. Great question. Jesus said, While seeing they don't see. While hearing they don't hear, because if they did, they would change. That's what we find in the difficult relationships that people don't see. And many times they don't see themselves. Like I didn't see the anger. I didn't see it. I was told it the people tried to point it out to me, but I didn't see it until the Lord got a hold of me and I went got some help. Well, it's similar. A lot of times it points back to a traumatic or dramatic situation that happened in early life. I'll give you one example of a couple in Alabama that amazing couple. Boy, they were ready to get a divorce. And when we got up under the covers of it, it took a while because finally she said something that had happened to her when she was little. And in that session, her husband reached over and touched her hand. We've been with him for six months. He had never done that. The thing that she thought would repel him would send him away is once she disclosed it, brought him closer to her, and he said these words. He said, Wow, I never knew that. Well, it triggered something. It was triggering something that was in her that he he had no knowledge of. And once it came to the surface, man, they have been amazing ever since.

SPEAKER_03 24:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

They were already an amazing couple. They just didn't know how to deal with some matters. Many times it's like there's no different from black-white relationships. There's some stuff that's so deep in us that we can't even see it. It's not until we get into these loving relationships like me and my friend when we go deeper that we can see some stuff. I saw some stuff in me because he helped me. He sees some stuff in him. That's that old racist Alabama stuff. We've talked about it. And it goes deep. But when we understand it's just it just is. It's not who we are. It's just a part of our makeup. It's just something that happened that now we're getting some better understanding of that we can see. We look for models that help us do things differently. And we become a model that do things differently. Me and this guy knew that we were leaders in this city, and we couldn't be fussing and fighting. We want public display. Well, how would that look for a city that we're trying to reconcile?

SPEAKER_03 25:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

Right?

SPEAKER_03 25:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

But it couldn't just be for show. We had to go deeper. We had to really talk about and process it and love each other. Because if it's just a suck show, guess what? Everybody's gonna know it.

SPEAKER_03 25:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

It's not just for show. We truly love each other. And I guess I say that to say, I don't care if it's a marriage, a relationship, a boss, or a child, you're gonna have these moments that you're gonna have to know that only God can solve this. We got to give this to God. We won't really want to be reconciled. God has to get involved. And it's so important. It's so important that you God has to be the hero in the story.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

And it's so important that that, like you said, that you model it and that you lead out.

Be The Catalyst In Your City

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Um I'm reminded I'm reminded of a quote that you uh that I that I pulled up. I did a little research, and and and there was a there was a moment uh where you guys in Memphis were working through, like like all of us all across the country, we're working through uh the the George Floyd's uh George Floyd death and the reckoning that was happening there. And so church leaders all over the country uh because because you know typically we have a wartime mentality when it comes to racial reconciliation. And it's when when conflict arises, that's when we all rally. You know, our our our encouragement, you know, as Mission Mississippi is we need to have a peacetime mentality about reconciliation. Don't don't wait to the conflict. Let's all come together and do the work before the conflict so that so that we have something to stand on when the conflict arises. But but nevertheless, you know, I digress. In 2020, you you guys were in the thick of it and working together. And there's a quote that was given um that was given in a local story uh where you said, we are who we've been waiting on, not somebody else, but it's on us. It's us. And if we aren't going to be the catalyst, then we wait in vain. We we we're waiting in vain. And so we have to lead out. If we want to see reconciliation, we can't wait for reconcilers. We have to be the reconcilers. Wow. And so that just resonates with me. It resonates deeply with me.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

We remember saying that, but I remember it now. Yeah. Because we are. We're the answer. Matter of fact, we're the answer and we're the problem. One time David and I, his friend, I keep talking about, God gave us both a revelation at the same time. He said the answer is in the problem. The answer and the problem were the same. It was the church. The church was the problem, and the church also was the answer.

SPEAKER_03 28:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

We are the answer to the problem.

unknown 28:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

But we have to step up. We have to do our part. God has a part to play, and we have a part to play.

SPEAKER_03 28:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

We are the answer. And when we model that, I get to do shows like this because we're modeling. Yeah. God gives us influence, man. Influence is so critical. God told me many years ago, and I told my wife this: God said, I'm going to give you influence. And boy, has he done that. From the mayor to the governors, and we had the governor to pay for the food in our last golf tournament, right? And I and I guess I say that to say, not braggadociously, this is what God said.

SPEAKER_03 28:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Ain't got nothing to do with me. He said, I'm going to give you influence. So now we have influence. The mayor's once the first Monday of every month, I invite all the politicians to come and pray with me at my house, at my condo. We got a big room up there on the 17th floor. We can overlook Memphis and we pray together. Whether they come or not, I'm going to invite them every first Monday. And the mayor has been here. Yeah. So, and I guess I say that to say we take what God has given us and we use it to his glory. He's given me insurance.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

I'm using it. I'm trying my best to use it to his glory.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Take the minus, take the talent. Take the talent, take the minus. Use whatever he gives you for his glory.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Whatever he gives you. Yeah. Whatever he gives us. So grateful for it, Kidd.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Yeah. Nettie, Nettie, you're leaning in. Share with us what you're thinking over there. Please

Stop Waiting And Start Obeying

SPEAKER_01 29:45

do.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

You know, he was talking about God has his part and we have our part. You know, I hear this request so often. Pray that I can get more God or or something like that. You know, it's to me, it's like, well, you know, you got all God you're gonna get. That's it. That's it. You know. And I'm waiting on God. No, God's waiting on you. God's waiting on you. That's it. And so in this thing of reconciliation, it's right there before us. Now, are we willing, God reconciled us. And so my challenge to us is that if God has reconciled us unto himself while we were yet sinners, while we were yet enemies, and he's done that through Jesus Christ. So if he reconciled Brian and He reconciled Nettie and He reconciled Dan, what's the problem?

SPEAKER_03 30:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:51

Now we've been reconciled, now we're brothers. So the, you know, as with siblings, you know, we got robberies and whatever else. Now the challenge is not to be reconciled, but how do we live out the reconciliation that we have? And oftentimes we we look at it as though, as you all were talking about waiting for the reconciled to happen, whatever we were looking for. I'm just wondering sometimes, what are people waiting for? You know, it's like they're waiting for the next uh conflict or they're waiting for the next incident. I'm talking, what are you waiting for? You know, yeah. Um because when you look at the situation, it's it's there before us. Oh, just let me say this. I'm gonna just throw it and put it out there. You know, the the the the issue is that we look at what other people are doing. Do we ever pay attention to what we are not doing? Yeah, that's it. Um here here's my my take, uh Brian, and and then it's that Jesus says, go make disciples. Jesus says you're the salt of the earth. Jesus says you're the light of the world. We look at the division, we look at the decay, and we look at the darkness. And we criticize the mayor, the governor, the president, police chief, the people that are committing these atrocities or whatever they are, or causing it, the Republican Party, the Democrat Party, the black people, or the white people, the expanding, you know, whatever it is. And we're very critical of what we see them doing. But I want to help me and and others to understand that it's a a lot of what you see people doing has a correlation or connection to what you are not doing. My goodness. So I read the old testament. Jesus, God, let me put it that way, God says to Moses, if you can, is Abraham, I'm sorry, says Abraham, if you can find 50, I won't destroy the city. 50 righteous people, I won't destroy the city. All kind of degradation and and sin. I'm talking about the the height of of uh uh of derogatory stuff that you can describe as it was horrible in Sodom and Gomorrah, right? And so God says it'll come up in my nostrils, and I gotta get rid of it. And and Abraham says, Whoa, whoa, whoa, if I find 50 righteous folk, will you not destroy it? He said, Sure, go find 50. And Abraham got all the way down what'd he get out of the 10. Yeah. Couldn't find them. My challenge to us today that the killings, the division, and and and all of this is because the righteous can't be found.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

Yeah, it starts with us.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

So you said that earlier. So right relationship mean, first of all, my relationship is right with God. I am his disciple. I I believe uh that whatever he says for me to do, I should take it and go do it. Yeah I'm a follower, I'm a believer in Jesus Christ. And those words both mean obedience. Obedience. And so if the world is dark and decaying and divided, where is the light? Where is the love?

SPEAKER_00 34:50

And Nettie, that's why podcasts like this are so important. Because you're not talking to people that aren't doing it, but talk to those that are. The reason I say that is because I was invited once through Christian community development to a guy who was doing a presentation via Zoom way many years ago. I think he was in Phoenix or whatever. He was talking about racial reconciliation. And written a book. I could tell that he wasn't in a right relationship with nobody that was on the other side of the aisle. Because of the uh the surfacey comments. If you're in this for real, you could you ain't gonna be on the surface. You're gonna go deeper.

SPEAKER_03 35:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

If you're doing this for real, if you're living this out, living reconciled, those comments are so beneath you. They're so elementary. It's deeper than that. So that means that the people that are living it, the people that are doing it, we have to be the ones that are having these talks.

Intentional Friendships Across Divides

SPEAKER_00 36:07

You see, every day I'm gonna be in a relationship with somebody that's white, somebody that's Latino. Every day, intentionally. These are my friends. Right? And when you're friends, you're gonna learn some things that you're not gonna learn on the surface.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

I love the fact, Pastor, that you said intentionally. In other words, it's not just something you stumble in, but it's actually something that you're seeking out.

SPEAKER_00 36:31

Every day. Yeah. Every day. I'm on prayer lines with them. There's one lady that's over the Latino community, and she's black. And we talk, we pray together every morning. There's a white sister on there, and the black, white brother, and what we're doing, though, is we're in relationships where we seek God together, we do life together, and we grow together. Yeah. But we got to do it together in order to really know each other. And that's what Nettie was talking about. Well, it's a livingness thing.

SPEAKER_02 37:01

You know, I think, you know, Dolphus thinks he intent he um invented the word intentionality. You know, he said, you know, he said you put it.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

Who's doc you're talking about Dr. Dolphus weird for our listeners? He says intentionality.

SPEAKER_02 37:18

Um, you know, the the thing about intentionality is that you're intentional about doing what it is you're supposed to be doing. That's it. It's not that this is something that extraordinary are going out of my way. This is what first of all, this is what we've been charged to do and called to do. Second of all, you don't really have a choice in the matter. Those people, those people you're interacting with, they're part of your life, whether you want them to be or not. Tom Scale uh long ago said when Mitch Mississippi got started, he said, he says to a white brother, he said, you know, you could live the rest of your life, and your interaction with a black brother would not change the course, direction, or even the outcome of your life one out.

SPEAKER_03 38:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:09

But for me, as an African-American, he said, I had to get up every day and figure out your thoughts, your thing, and how you're gonna work. Because I can't do anything that's significant unless you're a part of it. My life uh survival really depends on my interaction with you. So, but you know, he said it in that way during that time. But you know, when you look at life, man, you you gotta interact with people that are in all categories of what we say keep us divide. If you're talking about race, if you're talking about politics, if you're talking about marriage, you're talking about economics, you're talking about social, you're talking, name it. It it's it's it's it's just a part of the fabric of the world we live in, and and and people have tried to live it separate and apart, tried to start new nations, tried to, you know, do all kinds of things to live apart. And in the end, we find out some of the most radical people I know, in the end, that when their life started declining in a way, that the first thing they did is start getting their relationships right across the racial divide, across the other divides that over there. Because they realized that, you know, all of my fighting, all of my rebellion, all of my uh black power, white power, all these things that we have, at the end of the day, we got to live together and we gotta live in as it relates to the body of Christ. There's no option to love you. You know, there's no choice about loving you. Uh and we ought to love each other because it's the joyous thing to do, it's the right thing to do, and it's because Christ is commanding us to do it, not because it's mandatory, not because my survival depends on it, but because that's what's in me. The love of God is in me. So I need to reach across that with the love, and that comes that intentionality, is that I need to pursue you. Jesus, I hear this song uh uh about Jesus pursuing. He said, You never give up, you never give out, you're always pursuing me. And we should be pursuing people as well, across whatever device and uh division we have. He says, uh, if you come to the altar, and and I'll I'll kind of shift in a moment and let you all talk.

Reconciliation Before Worship

SPEAKER_02 40:38

He says, if you come to the altar and remember that Dan has an art against you, Nettie. He says, first go be reconciled, and then also, Dan, I know you appreciate this. He said, Leave your money there, though. Don't go with your money. Leave your money. Leave your money at the moment. But but seriously, he says, go and be now. Just just think about what I just said. If you remember that somebody has something against you, he says, you got to make the first step. You got to go and resolve it before your worship, before your your preaching, before your teaching, before your ministry, before you do all of this other stuff, you need to let that be until you go and be reconciled.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

Because the anointing depends on that. Yeah, the anointing depends on that. If you want to be anointed, you must be reconciled. Yeah. Him my heart. Now, you can get up and preach. There's something about a deeper anointing that comes through what Nettie just said. You will find it in no other place. You wonder why these people are so deep within that anointing?

SPEAKER_01 41:50

That's why. It's a reflection of our relationship with God. I mean, that's what 1 John throughout talks about this idea that we can't love God whom we have not seen without loving our brothers. And so you can't, you can't separate the two. You can't you can't pull them apart. You know, in order to, in order to love God rightly, you must love neighbor rightly. Um and so, yeah, absolutely.

Staying Steady In Hard Seasons

SPEAKER_01 42:14

Pastor, I got I got around the turn on here. I but I do I want to ask you a question that that I th I think you can help our listeners with uh more uh more than possibly any other any other um guest we've ever had. Um you you've had 41 years of beautiful relationships and marriage and and and and I've heard you testify uh of your stories in terms of your relationship with your wife, your relationship with your children, in terms of knowing both real joy and experiencing real loss and real hurt. Um for someone that's listening today who's who's in a hard season of life, uh where life doesn't look like Disney World for them, um what can you share from your wisdom and your experience in terms of the things uh the the the that that secret sauce, if you will, to use your phrase, that has actually sustained your relationship with God when when when things have gotten rocky, where where where the where the mountain has seemed a little too high to climb, so to speak. Talk to us a little bit about the wisdom that the Lord has um given you and taught you through the years as to how you continue on and and how you sustain good, healthy relationship with Him and with and with others.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Um I think that's a beautiful question. Let me let me look at it from a couple of different perspectives. Yeah. First of all, with my wife. Now, this is gonna be hard for some people to hear, but this is the truth. Many years ago, my wife got married 41 years. The first 10 years I say we're kind of rocky. The first 12 years she says was kind of rocky. So we both agree that we'll stop at eleven. Cut it in the middle. I mean for 30 years, the last 30 years it's been bliss. God got a hold of me. I came home one night, I was drunk as a skunk. I looked in the mirror, I said, God, if you are real, help me. God, if you're real, help me. I can tell you this, God is real. But when God got a hold of me, I looked the same. I sounded the same. So to my wife, I'm the same guy. I told her, if you're blaming this guy, for anything that that guy did, you're blaming the wrong guy. She didn't want to hear that. So every day from that day forward, I had to be that new guy. I'm not saying I didn't make mistakes. Sure I did. Still do. But boy, my wife knows that this ain't the same guy. So there needs to be something different about us. Need to be something that's so godly that even when we make mistakes, we say, I'm sorry. I screwed up. I messed up. With my wife, it's been an amazing journey together. We are best friends. We love each other. I told people, I'll tell people the best part of my day is waking up with Ms. D in my bed. You know, some people say, but foes is in your cup. But the best part of waking up with Mama D sitting right there.

SPEAKER_03 45:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:29

My son had all kinds of alphabets behind his name, ADHD and all of this, whatnot. And Daniel would talk to me any kind of way. He's 25, now he'll be 26 next week. But around 18, the Lord gave me a word that basically said, no matter how he talks to you, no matter how he responds, you talk to him like he just made all A's in school. Boy, that was hard. My wife thought I was crazy. The guys that has made all the difference. You think my son was my best friend. We talk every day. We went shot guns together. He is your best friend. He really is. I love him. He's working. He got a job where now that his new boss said basically gonna give him a raise in a couple of weeks. Wow. Think about this for a second. Total turnaround. But God told me how to speak to him. I never forget one time after I started trying to do better, I asked him, I said, Dan, Daniel, because he was still talking to me any kind of way. Talking like I was stupid. Right? And uh I said, Daniel, why you why why why you talk to dad like that? He said these words. He said, Because of the way you come at me. Well, I couldn't see myself coming at him like that. And that's why the Lord told me not to come at him like that, to talk to him like he made all A's in school. Now you would never know that Daniel ever went through that. But God had to, again, God had to get a hold of me. And God was dealing with me. I never forget I used to go into God when God got a hold of me, and Miss D would do something. I said, You need to get this this woman you gave me, you get her straight. And every time I went to God pointing my finger at Miss D, guess what he did? He pointed it right back at me. No definitely, I told you I just got fired in a relationship from a friend. God didn't point out at him. I never forget. I told God because he said, Don't touch my son. Because I was about to wear him out. Okay. Well God said, Don't touch my son. I said, Well, I said, Well, I'm your son too.

SPEAKER_02 47:48

Brian, I know you're trying to bring this round to an end, but I I I just I got one burning issue I I want to make. Uh a statement already based on something that Daniel just said. May I do? Go ahead, go ahead. Go ahead, go ahead. You know, uh when I'm doing marriage preparation and marriage counseling, and the the bride to be, or the groom to be, or the husband or wife is pointing fingers at each other about all these things that they're doing and not doing and so forth. My question is always to the bride and to the groom. What if they were doing all the things that you think they ought to be doing when you want them to do it, how you want them to be doing, how would you treat them? And they put a big smile on their face and say, Oh, maybe they got the best night of their life, right? I'm saying God is telling you to give them the best night of their life while they're in there, whatever you see. And if you ain't if you can't do that, then you need to be having a conversation with God.

SPEAKER_00 48:52

That's it. That's good, Nettie. And I can end it. That's it. What he just said, that's the secret sauce. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Man, I like that secret loss term he had. That's it, man.

SPEAKER_02 49:04

That's it.

SPEAKER_01 49:04

That's it. That's it. Don't wait. Don't wait for perfect conditions to you.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

Miss D, I tried to outserve her.

SPEAKER_02 49:13

Miss D, I'm telling, man, it's becoming, it's becoming, it's becoming.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:20

Don't wait for perfect conditions.

SPEAKER_01 49:21

No, no, no, don't wait for perfect conditions to love unconditionally.

SPEAKER_02 49:27

We all jacked up and we all becoming.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. That's good. Pastor Dan, it has been such a privilege, uh, such a pleasure, man, to spend the last 50 minutes with you and Kevin.

SPEAKER_02 49:42

You mean our time is going by that fast, man?

SPEAKER_01 49:44

It's man, it's going, it goes by fast when you're having fun. It goes by fast when you're having fun.

How To Connect And Final Thanks

SPEAKER_01 49:50

Yes, sir. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

Thank you guys for the opportunity. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

How can people keep up with Pastor Dan Henley and CDN? Yeah, shit. Yeah, how can it keep up with you?

SPEAKER_00 50:01

Yeah, Church Developers Network, one word, Church Developers Network.com. We're doing a lot of stuff now. And I'm our our website is kind of what we're pushing people to. Church DevelopersNetwork.com. And that's the best way to get a hold of me. We're very accessible. So we're not supposed to run and hide behind a website. We you can get a hold of it. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 50:23

Fantastic. And for all of our listeners, uh, please all please always remember to like, share, and subscribe. Not just this episode, but also the podcast in general. Uh, we got great news recently. We um we recorded, not only did we record 100 episodes, but we um also got over 5,000 downloads recently. We also um found out that we are uh climbing the charts in terms of uh conversations around racial reconciliation um as a podcast. And so, man, we're so incredibly thankful for you for the support that you've given us uh for um listening to all uh 100 episodes of me and Nettie pontificating uh with all sorts of good people. Uh we appreciate we really, really appreciate that. Uh, but please like, share, and subscribe to this podcast. Also feel free to visit visit missionmississippi.org. Again, missionmississippi.org, whether you would like to support this work, whether you would like to participate in this work, whether or not you would like to partner with this work, or whether or not you just want to talk about it. We would love to love to connect with you. It's been a great podcast, a podcast episode with Pastor Dan Henley and with my good friend, Nettie the Great Winners. This is Brian Crawford signing off saying, God bless. God bless. God bless. God bless you. Thanks for joining Living Reconciled. If you would like more information on how you can be a part of the ongoing work of helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured, please visit us online at missionmississippi.org or call us at 601-353-6477. Thanks again for listening.