EP. 101: Levi Gill and Hope Exchange

What happens when the gospel moves from belief to practice? In this episode, Levi Gill, executive director of Hope Exchange, shares how faith, dignity, and relationships can reshape the way we approach poverty, work, and reconciliation.

From workforce development and financial literacy to mentoring and community-building, Levi explains how Hope Exchange equips people to thrive while helping churches move beyond charity into lasting, authentic relationships. This conversation offers a practical vision for loving our neighbors with humility, dignity, and hope.

Special thanks to our sponsors: 

Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Mississippi College, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple Church, Mississippi State University, Real Christian Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters.

Transcript

Why Living Reconciled Exists

SPEAKER_01 0:12

This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated to giving our communities practical evidence of the gospel message by helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured for us by living with grace across racial lines. Welcome to this episode of Living Reconciled. I'm your host, Brian Crawford, hanging out with incredible friends like Nettie Winters and special guests that we'll introduce in just a moment.

Sponsors And How To Partner

SPEAKER_01 0:38

But in the meantime, I want to give a quick shout out to some of our sponsors and some of our partners, those that contribute to this podcast and to the broader work of reconciliation. Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atnis Energy, Bellhaven University, Regents Foundation, Mississippi Christian University, as of June the 1st, no longer Mississippi College, New Horizons International Church, Crossgates Baptist Church, Para Orchard Presbyterian Church, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple Church, Mississippi State, Real Christian Foundation, Orchard Church, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, and then great friends like Miss Doris Powell, Robert Ward, Ann Winters, Barbara Beavers, Jerry Beavers. So many people, too many that we can even uh begin to count. But we just want to say thank you. Thank you for everything that you do to make this podcast possible. But more importantly, thank you for everything that you do to make the work that we do possible. And the work that we do is continue to advance the work of reconciliation, Christian reconciliation across the state and beyond, so that communities across our state would have practical evidence of the gospel message. We do that by adopting uh particular rhythms, uh prayer, uh coaching, um, creating space for connectivity, and creating opportunities for communities to reach their community. And so uh thank you for the broad uh for the opportunity that you give us. And we would love for you to partner with us if you have not done so, or love for you to participate in what we're doing. Here's how you can get more information on our work. Go to missionmississippi.org. There's a button at the top that you can click that says donate or invest if you want to do that. But if you want to just peruse and learn about Mission Mississippi, it's there for you to do. Or you can call our office at 601-353-6477-601-353-6477.

Meet Levi Gill And Family

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Again, we are grateful, grateful to have you join us today for a very, very, very good podcast episode because we have a very good guest. Um, we are welcome uh, or we have the privilege to welcome um our friend, um Levi Gill. Levi is the husband of uh Kateri? Kateri. Kateri. Thank you, Kateri. Kateri, Kateri. Levi's a man.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

You need to get that right.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

If nothing else on this podcast, man, if I don't get anything else right, I will never I will never forget Kateri for as long as I live.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

It's a tough name. It's not normal.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

But but Levi and Kateri are members of Redeemer Church. Uh, they have five wonderful children. Uh Levi is um the executive director of the Hope Exchange, uh, which he started in 2017. And I'm gonna let Levi tell you all about that. We're not gonna steal his thunder. Uh, but he has a BA in English and professional teaching license from Western Colorado University. And before starting Hope Exchange, Kateri uh worked as an art educator and was an art artist in residence at St. Roe Community Church and inner city church plant in New Orleans, Louisiana. And she has a BA also in art from Bell Haven University. So uh, Levi, man, we are incredibly grateful to have you join us today. Um thanks for this episode of Living Reconcile.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Yeah, man, glad to be here. Thanks for the invite. It's it's been fun. Uh, you know, it's been fun to share an office downtown uh for these last this last year. So it's it's it's even better to actually get connected in a different way. So thanks for watching. Really glad to be here.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Absolutely, brother. Absolutely, man. Tell us a little bit about Levi, man. Tell us a little bit about your story, uh, your life, your faith. Um definitely. Yeah.

Growing Up In Rural Colorado

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Start there. I grew up in rural Colorado, uh, which is why I went to college out there, Western Colorado University. Used to be Western State College back in the day.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Is is rural is rural Colorado like rural Mississippi, or is it a different different kind of rural?

SPEAKER_00 4:36

So, yes and no. In some ways, rural Colorado is more rural in the sense that you gotta travel some distance to get any place. You know, whereas rural Mississippi, you're kind of like an hour from someplace. That's it. But but very similar as far as just how the communities are centralized around like a high school or some of those you know key community uh assets. Yeah, we that's how it is in rural Mississippi or rural rural Colorado. So, yeah, small town, about 7,000 people in the county. And so it was a delicious, but it was also a tourist town, so kind of a different vibe, too. You got people coming to your small place versus Mississippi small towns where people may not come there, unless they're coming to a blues festival in the Delta, right? Right or some other way. So you do have so that that was a helpful thing growing up in rural Colorado. So you did have these people coming to ski or coming to swim in the hot springs. So uh you get some you get some guests every once in a while. They always said that uh it was Texas that made Colorado green. And so that was uh otherwise a very deserty place, but anyway, it's fun and fun. So yeah, grew up in Colorado and uh had had a big family, fourth, fourth child of six. And uh my faith journey though started real early. Uh I had this uh yeah, I had this strong desire to see even my my little brother saved. And so I had I had a real sense of spiritual sense from a from a young age. My mom, my mom led me through the sinner's prayer in the back of our uh back in those days, you know, we'd take vacations and we we we were all in the back of the truck, in the in the back of the bed, uh driving to California to see my dad's family. Anyway, but that was it was there where she talked, I wanted to be in the Lamb's book of life. I said, that's signed, sign me up. I'd like to be, I'd like to be named in that book. And so that was the beginning of of and it's in a in a in a real sincere faith from an early age. Just I just I kind of just it was something that made sense to me, wanted to wanted to do. Um yeah, follow follow the rules was was the was my was my immature way of thinking about it, right? Being able to follow the rules of my own strength. And that that developed into a really a passion for people, and then a passion to see people, um a passion for justice on one side, right? Caring, caring about those who were vulnerable, especially when I was in college. So that was that was a big shift for me, but owning, owning my own faith, something that was um made it real for me. But also caring for the least of these has been for me a guiding light and thinking about what makes what makes for real authentic faith. And for me it was that you you got to care for those people who people don't see who are on the margins. And so that was that was this it yeah, it really really took off in college for me.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Where did that come from, Levi? That that passion, that desire you mentioned justice, least of these. Yeah.

Justice And The Marginalized In Scripture

SPEAKER_01 7:19

You know, where where did that passion, that early passion come from?

SPEAKER_00 7:23

So in some ways, I mean, in some ways it comes from my studies in school, uh really, a really interesting way. I mean, in some ways, I was I was seeing that as as you as you go through school, there was people that um you realize were left out. And so for me, I kind of made a connection in my brain. I'm I'm studying and in Colorado, the difference, you know, we're not in the Bible belt in Colorado, so you are in the minority generally as a Christ follower, especially in my especially in my college town, I'll say. But so for me it was it was blending this. I'm I'm hearing that in my studies that man, there's there's inequity in our world. And and the and and it doesn't seem like yeah, that it works for everybody. And then for me, that that paired very naturally as I read the scriptures with Jesus' call to care for people who are marginalized. So to me, there was this truth-telling that was happening in my studies in school that was in a secular environment. And then, but it but it matched up perfectly with what I was reading and investigating and my commitment to following Jesus and then my commitment to the the community of faith. And so that to me, that that that that worked really well. So for me, it was it was it was coming out of those studies connected with uh what I was reading and hearing in my church uh con attendance and commitments there.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Yeah. You know, it's funny. We um I I mentioned to you before before the before the pod recording that that um I'm a Bible pastor, and and right now we're we're walking through Luke, and I'm staggered, absolutely staggered, at how much the marginalized is put front and center and in the in Jesus' teachings and Jesus' life, and the narratives and the stories that he tells and the experiences that he has sovereignly sovereignly uh insured would happen, right? By God's grace, you know, um all all of that, all of that prompting for our hearts to see that he's that he centers the mar marginalized it while we put them on the outskirts, while we marginalize them, he plays, he brings them back to the middle um uh of the story. And and and even as we're marching through Luke 18, I mean, there's just like hit after hit after hit, you know, starting with the persistent widow, moving from the persistent widow to the to the uh to the tax collector that everybody despises and rejects, from the tax collector to the kids that everybody's like, no, Jesus is too busy, keep the kids away from from the kids to the bar. You know, just over and over and over.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

He's putting them front and center, man. Yeah, it's so true. I mean hits all all the quartet of the vulnerable right there. You know what I mean? And then it adds adds in that other one where you're like, you've got this despised wealthy person, right? Who's but who is Mars last in the community. No, it's good. Absolutely, absolutely. It's it's unmistakable. I mean, you you can't escape it in the gospels in particular, but you can't escape it in the old testament either. No, you cannot escape the rules, the regulations that kept people from being perpetually underclass. And so, yeah, the the the sort of course correction that God builds into his law is yeah it's staggering.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

And so God, and so God really instilled that in you. He he he he gave you eyes to see some of the things that our Western eyes can sometimes find difficult to see very early on. And where and how and what did it prompt you towards? What did it lead you to?

Katrina Recovery And A Wider View

SPEAKER_00 10:52

No, that's really good. Yeah, I mean, for really, really from from college, I started to leave a to lead a college of ministry there, and it was connected to campus crusade uh crew, and and but yeah, we were kind of a satellite campus anyway, and so it was we had a different name for it. But I I led that little group and we we began to just think about, you know, hey, um think about our habits, right? You know, uh what what are we what um yeah in internet well what does poverty look like globally, right? So we were thinking about turning our attention in that in that's 25 years ago, right? What does it look like for us to to care for the people for people in other countries? Are we caring about what's happened and suffering around the world? That was an important piece of that year, but but also turning it inwardly. So I I once I was in college in 2005 when hurricane Katrina hit. And so, man, I I I I took the second year or my first year in college, we took a trip to New Orleans to help do hurricane recovery. And so we were we were looking internationally, but also we would we were we were hot, I was hopping on any anything I could get to to try to broaden my perspective. Growing up in a small town in Colorado, I was trying to get perspective, trying to understand and then really learn hey, I'm I'm I live in this resort town. That's a that is a it's a poor community, but it's a resort town, right? Like any, there's plenty of plenty of people in rural color. Name that town again. It's called it's called Pagosa Springs. I don't think I even named it. Pagosa Springs. It's it's one of those weird ones that people say, what? And so it's uh it's a Navajo word. Pagosa means healing waters. And so it's it's named, and it's it's in the in the area in the southwest where there's there's a numerous reservations, hickory Apache. I know you got Navajo.

SPEAKER_03 12:31

Yeah, I know you made reference to, you know, it's not the Bible belt, but were that churches and and and and things in there?

SPEAKER_00 12:38

Yeah, they're there and yeah, there is it's uh not in the same number of volume that you get in the Bible Belt, right? I recorded it. I would think not. But uh plenty, plenty of particularly Protestant influence. Although you have a lot of Catholic influence.

SPEAKER_03 12:52

So you took you took Christ to college with you? Uh uh I did, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

So I I I I came to I came to college with with uh not just a Christian foundation, but I was a I was a sincere follower through high school in in the in the ways that uh so in that so yeah, I I had I had I took him with me and and man and made him my own in college. That was an important shift in my thinking just in college. So yeah, so yeah, it was I was not I I uh you you deepen and mature your faith in college. That's what I got to do, I guess you could say, right? I wasn't discovering Christ in college, but I was deepening and maturing that that faith that was based in rules following, right? It was good. In in college, you get to the end of your ability to follow the rules, and you get confronted with many more conflict confounding, complex questions about the nature of God's goodness, why is there suffering in the world? You get to you get to answer those questions, and then then you get to you get to see um friends and and and um yeah, other people walk away from the faith in different ways. So you you get you get confronted with the all all alternate paths, and for me, it was helpful to have a foundation because in those alternate paths I was I was saying, well that that doesn't actually that's not actually a better solution to the question or the problem. Right.

SPEAKER_03 14:05

You you know, the the the the point I was hoping to make in that process is that many people say you you said something that was profound that I you know I took Christ with me. Many people talk about you know their kids grow up, go off to college, and and and the college mess them up, you know, all those things that you were talking about, those complex questions and things, you know, and my belief, and I think you're an example of that, if you take Christ with you, that generally doesn't happen. Uh just the reverse happens.

unknown 14:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

So that's what I'm saying. I saw all my studies. I saw all my studies as as a confirmation of the God of the Bible who who created the world. I mean, yeah, I mean I I could I could roll into, I mean, we and this is a very secular campus that I was on. I was not in a and it for me it was, I mean, they were just confirming the beauty of creation, right? Like this the the especially my science classes, it was wonderful to go with with a with a firm Christian foundation because it wasn't I wasn't rocked around. It was just like, wow, you're right. God's world's amazing.

unknown 15:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Yes, we should carefully. Right? I mean, even you know, we had a heavy influence in my country.

SPEAKER_03 15:06

So that myth about losing something or or or or not have you in college and and all of that that people say about that, you are a prime example of how important and how critical it is that you have that foundation and your commitment to Christ going into the world rather than uh hoping that the world is going to do something for you as you go. And so I think sometimes we take a false sense of what Christianity is. And and when we get there, since we don't have that firm foundation, there's some things that we follow that we shouldn't be following. I just want to make that point to the audience because that's important uh uh foundational uh statements you made about taking Christ with you.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. You you you certain you you you mentioned, uh Levi that you you kind of had had some different experiences, you know, um that the Lord took you know took you you know to crew and the Lord um the Lord um not only deepened your heart and your passion for the marginalized for for for justice, um, but he also sent you to places and spaces where you can minister uh directly uh to those people and to and um that that the Lord gave you passion for. Um what did the Lord teach you that that maybe what what what assumptions and expectations did he shatter, you know, in terms of you being on the outside versus you actually getting on the inside, rubbing shoulders um with with in places and spaces that are outside of rural Colorado, right? Um what what did the Lord teach you as you moved and moved in and out of these different spaces and places?

SPEAKER_00 16:46

That's good. Uh I would say that the most profound learning that I got to have was when I came and spent three summers in Helena, Arkansas. And in those summers, I worked with an organization there named named um Together for Hope. And Together for Hope had this 20-year commitment to the 20 poorest counties in the in the nation, in the US, for 20 years. So there was these they followed the Millennium Development Goals that the United Nations had put off in the in the year 2000. And so they they they had and they had aligned themselves. This is the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship. That's what that's what um the sort of larger organization that and so so we so I went to I and it was a friend of mine from college that

Delta Summers That Changed Everything

SPEAKER_00 17:27

recruited me to come. And this friend so had lived in north in northeast Arkansas. But we we so we went to the the Delta and I spent three summers there, and for me that's where I was really, really I I didn't even have a word for what what this calling was. I was sort of felt that this was the initiation for me into my calling. But the thing that shattered for me was was being in the Delta and seeing on on on uh Peach Street or uh in in in downtown Helena. The just I mean there was just vacant businesses in that community. And so for me, I saw I saw I saw these pockets of rural America that were disinvested in them. And to me, that that that to me just I had no concept for that living in the West and in this small town where you just didn't see business fronts that weren't didn't have businesses in them. I didn't I didn't so I hadn't I hadn't have any perspective. And then I went to a small community in Colorado to for college, but there was it wasn't like there was empty storefronts. Right. So I I entered into a place where man, here I am in the in the 20 poorest counties, right? I'm I'm understanding that I want to serve people who are under-resourced, but then you get into it and and you walk into these communities, and the big, you know, the big initiative for us was to put on a swim camp when I was there because the pool, which was right basically right buttoned up next to the levee, right on the river. I mean, listen, you could throw a stone into the Mississippi River where we were at. And this beautiful, huge, huge, huge, huge bathtub-like swimming pool was a haven for every kid in that community. And getting it back up and running again was something that the ministry had done that we were partnering with. But for me, just it was walking around and and and having, you know, every kid in the neighborhood ask you for a dollar so they could come swim in the pool. Was this thing that you you recognize like the you know, you know, that would that was for me an easy win, right? I'm I'm gonna push you on the swings all day and I'm gonna make sure you have a dollar to get in in the swimming pool. But it was it was just this recognition of well, if if if and then there was these two kids or three or four kids, Diamond and Sherrica, I remember their names. But there was these, I mean, we they were you know the the least advantaged of that in that community from my perspective. And it was getting to know their names, their faces, walking to their houses and walking in their community, and as as we attempted to put on a swim camp that was going to share the gospel. But for me, it was like, man, there's just there's a lack of economic opportunity that and and and up in a much bigger problem with finding and getting and maintaining jobs in rural America. That just it it it was for me, it was evidence of the injustice or or or or the work that the church was called to, and yet that the work that and I say for me, this is maybe more to the point, I realized that I had grown up in an environment that preached the gospel a lot, but didn't really prioritize acts of justice or acts of service or acts of mercy in ways that were that were that were that went together. And and it was around that time that I realized that there were just not very many Christian denominations that I knew about from where I was that that were making it a point to. Now again, I I wouldn't I wasn't spending time with Methodists who make that a point of what they do. You know, there I wasn't spending time with a lot of, but I in my evangelical circle, it was it was very much divided. And so, but this Baptist, co-optivists Baptist group had this laser focus on caring for the realities of poverty or and any exposure to the realities of poverty in this. Now again, I I was someone who grew up poor too. You know, I was not not a really advantaged kid, and yet the level the level of poverty that I experienced just blew my just blew my brain. And but it but it called to something deep in me, and that's just what happens, right? So I didn't even have a word for it. I didn't I didn't know this term missionary. I just thought, well, that's meant I need to work for an organization, a nonprofit. I'll work in a nonprofit sector. And so, but it was it was God calling me to the mission field because he said you can do it, you can you can you can you know that there's the truth of following Jesus is important, and you know that by following him, caring for the least of these is part of it, it's not separate. And I think I had seen that separation so much that experience helped me to kind of put those together and set me on a course to making that what I do for a living. I mean, it's just it's keeping those things connected. Um so I think that answers your question to some of the things.

SPEAKER_03 21:50

So you you you got the book when you went, Helena?

SPEAKER_00 21:52

I got the book in Mississippi. That is why I live in Jackson, Mississippi today. Even you know, um I I went and spent some more time. Well, I got uh spent three summers in Helena and I would have come back to Helena to do Teach for America because I had this weird, you know, I had finished my college degree and I had my degree in teaching, and I and so I said, Well, well, how do you do missions in the Delta with a call with the with a teaching license? Well, you come do Teach for America. That was it seemed like a rat trick. And then and I that door closed for me. I did not get accepted to do Teach for America. It was in, I was coming out of college in 2009, and that was right at the downturn in the recession of the housing, you know, the housing kind of bubble. Anyway, so there was a lot of people that flooded that market, and I also just interviewed badly. I I just it was it was not a it was not my best performance. And so, but God had other plans. And so um, I took a two-year weird hiatus and I went to Connecticut for a couple years and with a friend of mine from college.

SPEAKER_03 22:46

Did you say God uh helped you fail that NB possibility? I think so. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

I don't know, I don't know if uh I think so. He helped me fail it. Yeah, he uh he put blind years on the eyes of the recruiting people so they didn't hire me. They didn't see my they didn't see the good in me. They just saw that I wasn't prepared for my lesson. It was also a lesson in just professionalism in general, right? You should probably prep your lesson the night, not just the night before.

SPEAKER_03 23:12

So I you know that's interesting, Levi, because most people would have said that Dama did it.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

Completely protected me from I think getting caught. I mean, I think there would have been some good opportunities to do Teach for America. I would have loved it. You know what I mean? I would have been on a different path.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

You know, it's interesting, Levi, um, that you you you talked about the kind of in some ways the the one of the holes in our discipleship at times, um, as it relates to really attending to this particular area. Two things, two things provoke some thought for me. That this is the first thought, is that, you know, in Galatians 2, Paul is talking about the the time in which he convenes with with the other apostles, and and he's the he's the the new kid on the block, so to speak, that God has called upon to go and and and minister to the Gentiles. And he says, hey, and and they and they gave me the right hand of fellowship to go and do that, to go pre preach uh God's gospel uh to the Gentiles under one condition, which is a very interesting condition, that he would remember the poor.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Which he and which he says that he was eager to do.

Poverty’s Hidden Weight And Church Gaps

SPEAKER_01 24:26

That's right. You know, so and so it's like, you know, we we can think of a bunch of different things when we prepare ourselves to go and preach to a group of people, and and the apostles were like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, we we believe God's grace is on you to go to the Gentiles, but just make sure that you don't forget the poor when you go. And Paul says, No, no, no, I won't forget them. I'm very eager to contribute to that. And so it's interesting that something that seemed to be so central to the apostles can end up serving as a as a as a as one of those holes in our in our in our understanding of what it got what is God actually calling us to. But then, but then the other thing that really comes to mind when you were discussing, well when you were kind of giving us your experience in Arkansas is that sometimes when we hear uh you know poor or meager or humble living, we tend to we tend to put it all in the same box. But there are different types of humble living, you know. There's there's the humble living where like you like you mentioned, we didn't have much, but we had storefronts that you know had had businesses, you know, and and then there's the humble living there there are no storefronts that have businesses, right? And it's and that's a different type of humble living. That's a different, not only is it different in terms of the wages, but it's different in terms of the psyche.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

To try, I mean, to to drive by or to walk by abandoned places and spaces every day of your life as a norm, obviously has to have has to um weigh on you um emotionally, psychologically. Is that did you see some of the you know, can can comparing and contrasting your life, I didn't have much over here, versus this life, I didn't have much over here, or they don't don't have much over here. But did you see that contrast? Did it become, or was it illuminated? Did it become more real to you as you were spending time in a lot of these different spaces and places?

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Yeah, no, that's a good question. I think the the idea of of sort of the psychological effect of poverty, right, has has these different effects. And, you know, for me now, um me in my rural community, you know, there's lots of people that stayed behind in my rural community and are still there to this day and have had different economic outcomes than I did from my position. Whether it was family support, did well in school, you know, for me there was the clear path of being able to, you know, do something. I didn't have a clear sense of what I would do, but I was like, I'll probably go to college, right? And so so in my community in Colorado, sure, plenty of people weren't thinking of college for sure. And yet I think the medieval multiplier effect in the rural adulthood is just that, yeah, the the the question mark of what will I do? Will I finish school, right? In my in my rural community, there's like a handful of kids that didn't finish school in my grade, right? Versus versus a a larger percentage in these rural communities that aren't going to finish high school, maybe didn't finish junior high. You know, and and and yeah, and and and on top of that, a generation before them that may or may not have had a chance to. And I think of course that goes all the way back to just the larger systemic kind of inequities education-wise that go on. So, yeah, for me, you know, that's just education-wise. That's which is part of the reason why I was glad I didn't just go through Teach for America because I feel like there's a lot of drivers to what creates what keeps communities down, right? And I think if you if you decide, well, the the the solution is just in education, which I believe it's a it's one of the solutions is definitely in education. And I think I would have been pigeonholed into using that as my only lever, right? But but for me, I I feel like I feel like I just needed to be able to have uh the gospel lever as something that was that hit on on a variety of these drivers, whether it's again, finishing school is important and what in the work that we do today. We got we you want to help people get skills so they can get better jobs because that's that's that's an open door. And of course, there's the larger there's the larger things that that are hard to touch, which is are there any industries in an area? You know, those are those are the those are the big questions for the for for Helena that was facing at the time as you realized, you know, these these people are a product of where they grew up and all the decisions that people made to leave and flee that area, and so they're left behind to try to figure out and it's a lot harder to be creative when you don't have any resources. A lot harder to yeah, it's a lot harder to to to make up something new when you don't have a starting point. And so that's what I saw is that there was there was not a lack of talent, giftedness, you know, amazing people that that uh that I got to meet, but it was just the the starting point and the creativity that you would need to make something there and the capital was not was not it was not there and was was not gonna go to them. You know, I mean the the the the loan from the bank in that area was not gonna go to somebody who had um yeah uh uh a business plan um that that was you know not secured, I guess, uh in the bank's mind. So I guess that's that's the key difference. Is it's just yeah, you're talking about just a multiplier of several different factors, education-wise, and then economic wise, opportunity-wise. And that does affect your psyche then. Yeah, so you you see you see kids not thinking that they'll go beyond that area, even though they need to, right? Or they're or the people that can are leaving and not coming back. Yeah. And and um or or or um, you know, this the the move to you know, Memphis is an hour away from Helena. And and um, so that's a that's a you know, that's a big take take it, taking people who can get away to go away. And then and then the folks that remain in the community that have degrees or businesses, you know, it's just yeah, it it is it's is it was the sign of a divided community too. Going back to you know, the nature of your work is that you know, this is this is the first time in my life. I'm I'm entering a place that'll say clearly black and white.

unknown 30:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

You know, you got black churches, white churches, and I just that to me that was that was a category that did not exist in from where I was living in rural Colorado. But it's just because of the lack of diversity in rural Colorado. Right. But but but you know, with that without eyes to see, I grew up with white churches and Hispanic churches. I you know, there there was this sense that like it it's just it depends on who you l who lives in your area, right? What the why are there why is there a Hispanic church that met in the church that I grew up in in the Africans? Well, because it's nice to hear the gospel preach in your own language, right? But yeah, so yeah, our cultural affinity groups coming together to worship together is not in it. I learned to see the beauty in that, right? Even even as it was jarring from coming from the rural uh from the world west where you thought, wow, this is yeah, it's just it's just so interesting. Even to use that the word, even the term, right? Where's black church was just I was like, wait, this is still around? Of course it is, you know what I mean? But you just said you just had no perspective from where I was coming from.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

So we man, we could talk all day about about these uh you know, these these um experiences, Arkansas of you know upbringing, but we have to talk about hope exchange before you leave. Um, because all of this kind of culminates in in some ways into where you are today, where God has uh has you today. Tell us a little bit about how hope exchange came to be, and then talk to us a little bit about what hope exchange is.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Yeah. So the the rest of the rest of my journey is quickly summed up as I spent two years in Connecticut getting some other professional experiences, and while I was there, I felt a strong call back to the South. And by then I had done some, I had got some urban experience, and it was really helpful. It really challenged me. I grew up in a grew up in a small town, and so getting this experience, working for some the job corps in New Haven, Connecticut, working as a substitute teacher in a in this in this in this district in this city district. Um, it was really helpful,

From Mozambique To Jackson Calling

SPEAKER_00 32:31

challenging. It worked for another nonprofit. So I worked for all these secular organizations, and by then I thought, you know what? I've got to work for Jesus and I've got to work for him full time. And I think God's calling back to the South. And so by then it just made sense. I had been in an urban context, Jackson, so I learned about We Will Go Ministries in Jackson, Mississippi through through a series of events. But but I had I had attended a missionary training school in Mozambique, Africa, which is you know something that everyone does, right? You just you you spend 10 weeks in Mozambique. And uh for me, but and then you meet a couple from Mississippi at the school. Right. So I'm in Mozambique, but I meet David and Amy Lancaster in Pemba, Mozambique, in northern Mozambique. And all day to meet David and Amy. That's what I meant. So and so they um anyway, so I came I came to Jackson to work with them for four years. And while while we while I was working with David Amy here in Jackson, because that's where I want I wanted to be at stateside and I wanted to be in the south, and it was just perfect. It was, you know, I was like, this is this is the gateway to the Delta. This is perfect. This is connect continuing what I was learning in the Delta, but here in Jackson with a particular set of urban issues as well. Uh so I came and I came, I came ready to just commit stay. So I so in coming in 2012, this is where I wanted to be. I was like, this is I'm I'm gonna put some roots down. This is this is what I feel I feel called to this work. I don't quite know what it looks like, but I'm gonna figure it out through we will go. And so it didn't take long for me to realize I wanted to be part of their vision to be a thousand lights on a thousand corners in Jackson. Now they don't always communicate their vision though that these days like that, but that's what I was hearing when I was there was that they wanted to raise up a bunch of people to be a thousand lights on a thousand corners in Jackson. And so anyway, so me and my wife live in West Jackson now. And so, but what while I was working with We Will Go, they did anything you could do to share the gospel. So we got we wore lots of hats. But but it got to the point where I got the chance to run a wood shop and and uh with with um and and do some training to help people. We we had these part-time jobs and we created these these wood products, these wall decorations out of old.

SPEAKER_03 34:39

So you the one you the one put all that stuff in in silk?

SPEAKER_00 34:43

That's right, that's right. Me we I help I helped to build it all. Now, David's David's taken and done a lot of it with the the C and C router these days, but in the old days, we were we were hammering and nailing everything together, and uh, and I was I was training people so people would come to my house asking for prayer, everyone needed a job. And so for me, I became very passionate about the lack of just that

Founding Hope Exchange In 2017

SPEAKER_00 35:03

people, one, wanted to work and couldn't find work. To me, that was just clear that people in my neighborhood in downtown Jackson wanted to work and couldn't find work. And so uh so that to me it was just like this is it, this is this is what I've already seen. And so I wanted to focus in on the training aspect, the soft training aspect. So after several years of running this workshop and employing people part-time in these little jobs that wasn't just enough, I realized that for me that a big thing that we could play is we could we could share the gospel and help develop people and their soft skills. And so the initial initial training that I got right after we will go was in this class called Work Life. And Work Life is training that was created by the Chalmers Center, and the Chalmers Center is is an organization that's based in Chattanooga, Tennessee, and they create resources for churches to use for poverty alleviation. So there was, it was my other connecting point. It was it was a resource that people had made specifically so that churches could do the work of mercy and justice, right? They could do poverty alleviation in their communities, and these and these these resources were were great. And they also, funny enough, they they created this resource that wasn't just primarily pointed at the people in need, it was pointing at the church in just in the same kind of way, helping to develop the church's exposure and and basically training the church in how to care for and have relationships across these dividing lines. To me, it was this template, it was this structured way of recruiting people to serve as allies, in some ways, playing on their good intentions, right? You want to help. You have these good ideas how you want to help, but you have no idea what it means to walk with people. In fact, most people are challenged by a desire to be paternalistic, right? You you want to you want to tell people what to do. If you just follow what I did, you're gonna be all right. But but you have no perspective on what it would take. And actually, people's inability to follow your path. It's just it's because when you come from different communities, you you don't you don't understand the challenges that people face and the robots that they face. However, it's important that you know this people, it's important that you're in a class. And so the the idea was to create classes, these community these spaces where people could learn together, and you had different scripts. Some people are learning uh ways to develop their gifts so that they can get higher-paying jobs so it would get on a pathway toward living wage employment. And the the church volunteer is learning what does it look like to have relationships across dividing lands where you're not in the center running the show. You're an ally, you're walking with people over time, and and your your script is different. And learn and learning, and learning, you're a coach, you're co-participant. That that is that is the that's how I work with people. You're just so you know, you're gonna be taking this class as well, and you're yeah, you you may have a yeah, you're learning something different as you go through this, and yet you're learning together because um the best way to maintain relationships across these dividing lines, and and you guys know this real well too, but you you've you've got to be humble. Yes, you've got to ask questions, you've got to you've got to learn from the people that you're trying to serve. And for me, you know, that we we need more relationships where um we're not just in it because I'm trying to to check a check a box and do my good deed, but it's because my salvation, right? My the the strength of my commitment to God is it's is tied up in in other people being able to walk free, to be able to uh to pay all their bills, right? To to be a good steward of what God gave them. And um and and and when there's part of the community that is unable to do that for all kinds of different reasons, um, yeah, and and and and I have a chance to to to cross rub shoulders with these brothers and sisters. I I'm gonna have a lot of I have I have something to offer, but this I have something to gain. And so setting up these in these learning communities is what essentially what Hope Exchange does now. So we we create learning communities across the metro where we have people, uh we offer classes, workforce development, financial literacy, healthy communication. And the one that we've most recently created is one about calling and identity. So it's called love and purpose. And in some ways, these four classes you could say, I mean, we we offer them periodically in these two different community groups, and we also run our classes in connections with other organizations as they have needs. So we teach we've been teaching at Sunnybrook Children's Home for years since 2020, and and and recently environment buried treasures.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

And so

How The Classes Actually Work

SPEAKER_01 39:33

we so these are some classes, these classes, Levi, are they day longers, are they week longers, are they curriculums or a period extended period of time?

SPEAKER_00 39:42

It is a weekly class over a three-month period. And so it's kind of like a semester, right? You get in some ways that's helpful for people who are trying to get back into to maybe uh learning something, but it it's it's a good way to it's a pretty low bar, something that you can accomplish and do really well. And so the um once a week, 11 or 12 weeks is generally how it ends up being for all those classes. And yeah, and and and for work life one, people are putting together a work portfolio, they're getting they're getting they're getting FaceTime with employers, they're getting a chance to do mock interviews, create elevator pitches, resumes, cover letters, the whole nine with that. But also it's it's framed framed off of their gifts. Like where are you gifted and helping people get on a pathway towards living wage employment is the is the goal at the end of that one? Is all right, using the resources of the whole community is their way to help you get on a pathway. Um that first job you get is probably not gonna be a living wage job, and yet, right, on a pathway that includes more skills development and overcoming some obstacles, you can get on a pathway. And so maybe the the point is planning is is hope, right? It's hope exchange. That's the name of our organization. And so we create these communities where people get to get to swap hope for the for the for the church volunteer. They wonder how do you make it? You know, how do how do you stay positive? This person shares hope across the table. And then for the for the volunteer, you know, they get a chance to encourage people towards their goals and to quiet their mouth when they want to jump in and say, you should do this. And we try to purge the should from our mouths. Because it just you want to listen to people, you want to know what is it that God's calling you to do, and and then and can you partner with that and help people by opening up potentially your net worth, right? And and I think that's that's the beautiful opportunity in our community groups, and so that's a that's a small snapshot. So, yeah, we we create community groups where people are developing their their gifts, they are they're refining and they're creating goals, and they and we are mutually encouraging each other. We usually have a potluck meal together for our community-based ones, and people, everyone has a chance to bring something to that meal. And it's not just so it's not a soup line, but it's it's a potluck. We're really someone brings chips, they get to contribute to the meal. Uh so you could you contribute what you can, and so that's why it keeps the classes free. So is they're always free and because people have a chance to to to put something into the class each time. And so to me, that that's the right balance of a low bar to get in. And yet once you get in, you're like, I want to be part of this, so I'm I need I need to bring something next week. And so, and so people end up you know, they end up paying for the class, right? Because they're they're they because they become part of the group, and it's not it's it's uh as much as there is to to receive, there's an opportunity for people to to contribute, and that keeps it keeps the class from being just a come take, take, take. Yeah, and yeah, people can earn incentives by the end of the class. Something that we raise money for is we say, hey, do you want to sponsor somebody and in their development journey? Each class, there's a little carrot at the end that we want people to finish. Sometimes it's hard. 11 weeks is hard. So we say, hey, at the end of the class, as you successfully complete it, you can earn $250. It's a small amount of money, but yet when you get to the end, that is a nice thing to have as as a as a graduation gift there. It helps people pay that bill, invest in their invest in their job. You know, we we do a match savings thing with our financial class. You were saying something.

SPEAKER_03 43:11

Well, I just say, how long you've been doing this? How long has Hope been in existence? Hope it's changed. You know, I like the word hope. I helped start a hope credit union. By the way, I served on the board. I served on the board at the Charmer

Incentives Potlucks And Mutuality

SPEAKER_03 43:21

Center for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

You you know, I remember I remember seeing that. I know I was like, wow, this is what a what a cool thing. He's um so we started it in 2017. I so I wrapped up my time at We Will Go in 2016, and then I got married at the end of 2016, and then me and Kateri, we got this training, work life training in the spring of of 2017. So we jumped right, we got right in and then and then got our first class going that fall through through Redeemer. So Redeemer was our first partner with with kind of doing it together, and then we then we started doing classes at Sunnybrook. And so, yeah, we've we have we've done a lot of classes. And trained a lot of people. And I think our passion continues to be seeing people connecting in community, but also getting our churches involved. But you can kind of see the thread, right? Where, man, I this for me is a vehicle to get the church meaningfully involved in the work of poverty alleviation. Which to me, if you're doing poverty alleviation, you're never gonna have to worry about not being like not not being diverse. If you're doing poverty alleviation, you you have you have no problem. And then I think if you're doing it right, you you develop the best friends across across dividing lines. You know, because you're serving people.

SPEAKER_03 44:38

Yeah. You know, how do you get to Mississippi uh from some place in Colorado that I can't pronounce? You even know it was existing. By way of Helena, Arkansas, uh by the way of uh uh Mozambique. Mozambique, and then New Haven, Connecticut. Yeah, Connecticut, like, you know, by all places of Connecticut and Delaware and those places like how do you, you know, how do you get to Mississippi? Man, that's that's amazing. That's an amazing journey, man. Like you say, in the ministry God called you to, is it's like uh Jerry Clower used to say, you know, flung a craving on me, man. God flung a diversity on you until there's no option that you got, you you gotta be in the mix here, and you gotta develop those healthy relationships because those lines are demarcated almost like walls of where you are. So yeah, great job. Thank you for sharing.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

I appreciate it. That's wonderful, man. Absolutely wonderful. What what um what's the biggest takeaway from your time and hope exchange as it relates to the biggest lesson God has taught you, um, the the greatest joy possibly that you've experienced. Uh give give us one story that that captures, you know, um one big lesson or or one big joy that you that you've experienced by being while being at hope. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:09

One is you think a long way around to get to Mississippi. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 46:15

I'm I'm I'm glad to this to call Mississippi home. Yeah, that's that's my favorite part. Um and and to be able to do full-time ministry is to me just I'm very grateful. It it does seem to be just this generosity, this this beautiful gift of the Lord to open up a way for us to do this. And it's you know, you you guys work in raising money and and doing and doing work where you and to me, it's just it's a smile every time we we see the door stay open for us to be able to do this full time. And that wasn't we wasn't we didn't start off full-time. We started off, you know, doing doing, you know, teaching during the day, and we would do hoop exchange uh on and in the evenings and the weekends. And so I guess that part never stops. So I first I just gotta say, I just feel really grateful that the Lord has opened the door and that I get my family to be involved with me. Yes. Yes. That that that what I do this with my wife, we do it together. She she brings a lot to the table as far as uh a care and an understanding of people on the margins. Um she she grew up uh with a single parent household and and her mom is half her she's half Mexican, her mom's from Mexico, and so she she understands the care and and uh and uh and a perspective on people who are the underdog. And she is a proverbial root for the underdog kind of person. And so anyway, we we we're doing it together is is is a huge joy. And it is the it's what makes it what made us it's what made us successful. I would say that my desire to do it and my passion to do it wouldn't have taken us nearly as far as being able to work with somebody who helps us get across the finish line and ask the challenging questions. And it's also just very practical, like, hey, they're offering, you know, looks up, looks up when the training's happening, right? You know, you don't get trained if you don't look up and schedule the training to go get trained to do these things. So just very practical. Uh that's my wife. But so one of the biggest joys, though, has just been to see and to train up people who've gone through our classes and and are have returned and are helping me teach the classes. Uh we've had we've had several different of our participants who have gone through every all four of our classes, have been part of our community groups, have developed their gifts and skills and been able to land good paying jobs and have managed their money and communicate, you know, and and have have turned around and we've been able to say, hey, well, you could why don't you come back and help us help us facilitate? Now that's not necessarily the path for every person that graduates, but for our initial kind of

Wins Challenges And Staying In West Jackson

SPEAKER_00 49:04

our initial group of people that came through our community group as we kind of developed our model, there was there were three, four ladies in that mix that have all come back and have been able to work for the organization to some degree or another. And that has been that's a huge blessing to see kind of full circle. That is made and amazing. Yeah. So that that's weird. I mean, I mean, it's just it's just fun. I mean, I'm uh there's uh that that to me has just been a cool thing, and and it's just it comes in surprising ways. It wasn't our initial plan, but we just kept seeing the opportunities in front of us. And and the other the other thing that I think has been huge is that we we live in West Jackson, and and for me, continuing to live in the heart of the city is is both the biggest challenge that we continue to face, not not where we live, but just that raising a family when you when you're kind of working on both fronts. We're both raising raising five kids uh in the city and and doing our work. I mean we've tried to also not make our work the so it's like we're neighbors first in West Jackson. We're not hope exchange people or or doing something. So we've tried to find a way, especially right around the corner is the Perkins Foundation, right? I mean we live literally, I mean we live on Lexus. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Uh there's nothing I'm gonna do in in in West Jackson that they haven't already tried initially. So yeah, so coming in coming in as just to learn from people who've been doing it for a long time and and and and then try to see these these worlds merge though, but but it was really important that we just we live in the context with which we're serving, and our children have you know have friends that that live on the block uh is a really crucial aspect of it. And but that to me that's that there's there's joy in that and there's challenges all throughout that because and you know, this sustainability of being able to do it is just you know, whether and for us it's dogs, right? Like you my wife's like, I just can't take the kids on a walk because the dogs are gonna get me. You know, these these you get these things these things you don't think are the challenges, or the things that you don't come in even thinking about, and it becomes a prominent, prominent piece of the stuff. The neighbor calls the police on me because she's going through, so she's aging, she's she's going through, and and so I I get hauled off the jail because because she's she's suspicious of us living there. You know, so you get you get these things, you're not, you're not, you know, we don't, we're not gonna you're not sure what's happening. Wow. Uh or what and and it are those invitations to leave, right? Is that is that does that mean you should scrap it or do it from a a safer distance, potentially?

SPEAKER_03 51:25

Man, I won't. I want you to know this that John Perkin would believe that you was a hero in what you're doing. And Phil Reed is I I can't wait to share what you're doing and where you are with Phil Reed, because his his motto is go west, young man, go west, west is west. I know West West is best.

SPEAKER_00 51:43

West is best. I know. Before uh Phil took to ill, it was fun to every once in a while I'd see him in the in the in the graveyard. I mean, before he was, you know, he's moved down to I guess Crystal Springs now. But yeah, I would see him walk walking up in the Greenwood, Greenwood Cemetery is our best walking path.

SPEAKER_03 51:59

Yeah, but you know, you know, his his mission every day was to run those people up out of there, was not supposed to be up in there doing all the stuff they weren't supposed to be doing. So that was his mission.

SPEAKER_00 52:07

Well, he's got them, he's got them cleared out still. They they still they continue. This this they're a great spot. I love that. I love that place. But yes, go west. Yeah, anyway, we're we're we're holding the mantle, trying trying to keep keep recruiting people to our very vacant West Jackson. You know, you can go around it anyway, but we but uh it's it's got some gems.

SPEAKER_03 52:27

Yeah, my prayers they do something with that, uh, something spectacular with the zoo over there because Field, that's his heart, man. He wanted to see something happen with that zoo.

SPEAKER_00 52:36

They wanted to see it.

SPEAKER_03 52:37

He did not want to see it on Lakeland Drive, right?

SPEAKER_00 52:40

Yeah, well, I would always say to people, I was like, listen, you're gonna take my you're gonna take one of my two main assets out of West Jackson, right? What are you gonna do next? Take JSU and put it somewhere else? Like, what are you gonna do? You're gonna take, you know, I I I could understand the logic from one side, but I was like, you you don't you don't live over here. We need that. We need that asset.

SPEAKER_01 52:58

Yeah, well and yeah, that that that that's I think that's an important piece, Levi, that we don't understand that when when a when when an when an organization, when a company, when a when a facility, a resource, when it when it goes to another location, especially in places like Jackson and other inner city communities, it is also leaving a place and taking its resources with it. Yeah. And so and so and so it it becomes another amenity in one place, just another another bonus, but it becomes a whole in another community. Yeah. Yeah. And so I could see the passion that he articulated around preserving the zoo where it was, and I can see why you would want to preserve uh preserve it or or or keep it, but not only keep it, but but but hey, we'll using whatever resources at our disposal, make it make it a uh make it a place of honor and a place where dignity is affirmed for the community that they can celebrate it, you know, uh celebrate, celebrate it as theirs, celebrate it as part of their community. And so yeah, I can absolutely see that, see that in the benefit in that. Man, this has been an incredibly um illuminating discussion and and yeah, and a lot, a lot of a lot of things to to chew on in the process. Um, how can people keep up with um hope exchange?

SPEAKER_00 54:33

So my wife created a great little Instagram account, both for our garden. We run a garden as a place for people who've graduated from our classes to to do some practical work. It's kind of like my wood shop, but it's the garden now uh for hope exchange. And we we inherited it, which has been wonderful. But there's a garden Instagram, and also the the the ministry has an Instagram page, and she's beginning to build some content to kind of just showcase what we do and and sort of the classes that we run and some some snapshots. So uh you can find us on Instagram, it's the best way. We have a Facebook page, and then uh we have a

How To Follow Hope Exchange

SPEAKER_00 55:06

website, hope exchangejackson.org, and um from there you can kind of get to all those things as well. So uh, but that's but you can also come come visit us, and uh we're downtown at we got an East Jackson Leadership Foundation, so we have an office downtown, and but mostly we're in the community, right? Mostly mostly we're we're in we're in, we're doing we're doing classes connected to churches and organizations, and so be looking out for ways to partner and volunteer. And that's uh that's a great way to be involved, is just get involved with one of our classes and get some training for how to be a good ally. And um, and I would love to people to see people take that training and and and encourage the the the broader church to get the training, it's very applicable. We've taken the training, our our volunteer training, and made it so that we could do it on a Sunday school class. And so you could you could take it and call it a primer for caring relationships in general, right? Like what does it look like to maintain a healthy, vibrant connection with somebody that is different than you, not just culturally, racially, but also like someone that's disabled. Someone's, you know, again, not just not just poor, but what does it look like to care for people over the long term and do so without without patronizing them? Yeah, so it's really the it's the emphasis of that training. And to me, I think it's it's one of our yeah, it's one of the best things we have. It's it's one of the best ways that's first to be to be engaged in it is to get smart and wise and have some experience. Just jump in there, you gotta jump in there and try. And it's a little easier to jump in there and try when you have a little bit of a framework to start with.

SPEAKER_01 56:37

Yeah. Yeah. Um, man, Levi, that's good. Uh the resources too, just pointing, pointing our listeners to the resources will be incredibly helpful and definitely want to encourage everybody to take advantage of that. Uh, I certainly will. Um, even as you were talking about the ideal of you know, some of those resources being kind of leveraged for Sunday school curriculums and things of that nature, it immediately provokes some thought as to how we can better uh better um lean into again this kind of hole in our discipleship, um, even in even in my own local church where I serve. And so um, so yeah, we will definitely, definitely be uh uh remain uh in remain in tune, so to speak, with what the Lord is doing through Hope Exchange. And so we are so grateful for what you're doing. We're so grateful that you are a Jacksonian um and a and a and a and a fellow uh fellow um citizen of of this state, and we are so grateful that the Lord has entrusted this work to your care. Nettie, pardon shots, man, what you got.

SPEAKER_00 58:02

I'm grateful for you guys' invitation to come and and share. So thanks for what you do. Thanks for giving giving people a chance to come and share on the podcast. Brian and Eddie, I'm very grateful. Mission Mississippi.

SPEAKER_01 58:16

Absolutely, absolutely. And for our listeners, um please feel free to like, share, and subscribe. Not only this episode, but the Living Reconcile podcast. You can find it by going to any podcast app, typing in Living Reconcile. It typically will pull us up. But if you need to need a few more details, Live and Reconcile, Mission Mississippi, and that should get you to us. And then also, if you need more information on our work and the work of reconciliation that's happening across the state, please feel free to visit missionmississippi.org. Contact us at the office 601-353-6477. Someone will be more than happy to um speak with you about what the Lord is doing through this uh ministry. Um, on behalf of Netty Winners, my good friend

Subscribe Share And Final Blessing

SPEAKER_01 58:58

and our special guest, Levi Gill, I am Brian Crawford signing off saying God bless. Thanks for joining Living Reconciled. If you would like more information on how you can be a part of the ongoing work of helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured, please visit us online at missionmississippi.org or call us at 601-353-6477. Thanks again for listening.