EP. 100: Navigating Law School Culture with John Anderson

What if the answers to life’s biggest questions aren’t found in an argument, but in a person? In this episode, Dean John Anderson of Mississippi College School of Law shares his journey from philosophy, academia, and legal practice to a life-changing encounter with Jesus Christ.

Together, we explore faith as an informed relationship, the importance of authentic community in an increasingly isolated world, and how Christian leadership can foster justice, empathy, and reconciliation. Dean Anderson also reflects on the role of faith-based education in shaping leaders who pursue truth without cynicism and engage differences with grace.

This conversation offers a thoughtful look at vocation, purpose, and living reconciled in today’s world.

Special thanks to our sponsors: 

Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Mississippi College, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple Church, Mississippi State University, Real Christian Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters.

Transcript

Welcome, Sponsors, And The Mission

SPEAKER_03 0:12

This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated to giving our communities practical evidence of the gospel message by helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured for us by living with grace across racial lines. Hey, thanks so much for joining us on this episode of Living Reconciled. I'm your host, Brian Crawford, hanging out with some good friends today. Unfortunately, my my uh dear friend Nettie Winters cannot join us. He is um tending to a family matter, which we um encourage you if you're listening to this podcast, just be in prayer for him and his family, um, and the Lord knows. Um so be in prayer for them. But but we are uh nevertheless excited, um, even though we don't have Nettie, I have a really, really good guest that I'm excited to speak with. But before we do, I would love to just give a special thanks to some of our sponsors, uh, Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Bellhaven University, uh, Mississippi College, Atmos Energy Regents Foundation, New Horizons International Church, Crossgates, uh, Pear Orchard Presbyterian Church, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple Church, uh, great folks like Mississippi State University, Real Christian Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist, Christian Life, and then individuals like Robert Ward, Ann Winters, Doris Powell, Barbara Beavers, uh, Jerry Beavers. Thank you guys so much for everything that you do. It's because of supporters like you that Mission Mississippi is able to do what we do. And if you want to join this great uh list of individuals, churches, companies, foundations who are investing in the work of reconciliation, you can do it by just going to missionmississippi.org, click on the donate button at the top right of the page. And we would very much appreciate any contribution that you make to this work, this podcast, but the broader work of reconciliation that's happening from city to city, uh county to county, even state to state around reconciliation in Christ.

Introducing Dean John Anderson

SPEAKER_03 2:04

Um, I have an incredible guest uh with me today. Um, he is actually uh one of the first guests that that we had on this podcast uh quite a while ago when we started, and he is back. And I'm hoping that you'll get a chance to not only uh have a refresher of his story, but you'll get a chance to hear a few uh few new things as well as we dive into discussion. Uh but Dean John Anderson, he is the Dean of the School of Law for Mississippi College. Uh Dean Anderson um brings uh a myriad of expertise, um, whether it be law, whether it be philosophy, um he has uh he has his JD in law, but he has also his degrees in philosophy. He's thought through uh many different areas of thought and many different areas, many different ideas, but he is also a deeply, deeply, deeply devoted man of faith uh who we are incredibly, incredibly uh fond of and incredibly grateful for. Uh we have a great partnership with Dean Anderson and we spend some time at uh the Mississippi College School of Law talking about civil discourse, which we may get a chance to tease out a little bit more um in our discussion today. But nevertheless, uh I present to some and introduce to others Dean John Anderson. Sir, how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Hey, Brian, thank you so much for having me. I'm uh just couldn't be more grateful to be here.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

Man, we are grateful to have you and grateful to have uh um what I'm sure will be an incredibly enlightening discussion, which I want to start and lead out um with a little bit of your own story. Um we always ask people that join us on our Living Reconciled podcast to share a little bit of their story of faith and how they came to Christ and how um how they ended up in the space that they're in. Um for you that would be Mississippi Kyle School of Law leading the charge there.

California Roots And Philosophy Search

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Yeah, well, um I I you know it's hard for me to decide where to begin, really. Uh, you know, I I uh as you know, I grew up in California, um, spent my whole young life there. My my mom uh and and brothers and sisters still uh live there. Uh and um so uh we we I was raised in a household. Uh I I think the the best way to describe my household and kind of you know the faith and in my and my home was we were creasers, right? Christmas and Easter. Uh we we went to church. So we were nominally uh Christian, but it just was not integrated into uh our way of life, really, other than just kind of as a backdrop and a framing, right? So uh um and uh you know, with that kind of like uh starting point, um, I went to uh University uh of California, Berkeley uh for undergrad. I studied philosophy, as you pointed out, um, and also was in the US Marine Corps reserves at that time. So I kind of had uh straddled both those worlds, which was very interesting. Um maybe it maybe another podcast uh discussion. Um and uh but you know, I had I'd initially thought with that uh philosophy degree that it would be a perfect kind of prerequisite or preparation for law school, because I had always thought I would wanted to be a lawyer. Um but in that journey, I got so interested in these big questions, right? These metaphysical questions, how ought I to live, you know, uh, you know, why is there something rather than nothing? You know, what is the nature of things, right? These big, big questions. Uh I I got in such the grip in the grip of these questions that uh I didn't want to stop searching. And so uh I uh graduated from Berkeley, but then instead of going to law school, I ended up going to the University of Virginia uh to uh uh start their PhD program in philosophy. And so um that was my big kind of uh first foray out of California, uh away from the West Coast uh to where I thought was the South. I thought Virginia was the South. I I have since learned. Not quite. Not quite, not quite. There's the South, and then there's the deep South. That's right. Yeah, but but beautiful, wonderful place, Charlottesville. Uh did finish completed my PhD. Uh, and then kind of the funny thing that occurred there was, you know, I felt like I had kind of answered all these big questions for myself philosophically. How ought I to live? You know, what is what are what the what is the nature of things, right? I had I had answered these questions for myself, and kind of my dissertation was kind of a maybe basically a drop the mic moment where I basically explained the world and kind of moral uh and political philosophy all in kind of one massive architectonic, and I was very proud of it. Uh, but then I uh kind of felt like, okay, well, wait a second. Um, now what? Right? Do I now just turn around and spend the rest of my life just teaching what I've kind of learned and settled upon, or do I go out and put it into practice? And um that was where this kind of pull uh because the only thing, there's only one thing you do with a PhD in philosophy, right? I mean, you teach philosophy. That's it. There's no one's hiring. You don't hang a shingle, right? I think it I think in those in the Peanuts uh cartoon, right? They she did hang a shingle as a philosopher, uh, Lindsay did, but um, yeah, not not a big uh line of business there. So I I decided that, you know, maybe if I went to maybe I just love school, right? But maybe I I decided that if I went to law school, then I could practice law, I could uh teach law, or I could teach philosophy because I was already doing philosophy with law, theories of justice, things of that nature. Um so I uh so I uh went to law school and then um from law school I did decide I wanted to practice. So

Law Career And Turning Toward Church

SPEAKER_00 8:05

I went to Washington, D.C., practiced at a big firm, did mostly securities enforcement law, white-collar criminal defense. That's kind of my you know basic kind of career path uh up until the moment where I met my wife. We had my um my oldest Peyton in DC, and it was at that point where I was flying back and forth uh all over the country uh with cases and wasn't seeing much of her. And um uh that's where I would say kind of this point, this pivot point where where kind of faith started uh uh, you know, I love the the image of Jesus, you know, at the door, right? And he's knocking, right? But if you pay close attention to the image, uh there's never a door on the outside, right? The door that or the handle, there's never a handle on the outside, the handle's always on the inside. And um as a philosopher, I think I had always said to God, you know, I would have, I would have really in my evolution as a philosopher said I I kind of ended up agnostic, right? Uh when I completed my PhD and throughout law school and then early into my practice of law, I was agnostic. Um and uh uh it was at this moment, right, where all of a sudden I I heard the knock for the first time, and I started going to church. My wife was going to church. I started going to church every every Sunday, and um I realized that when I was sitting in church, that was what I looked forward to most every week. There was a power and a presence and a peace that I did not have anywhere else, and I started paying attention to it, and it started calling me and drawing me. Um and uh so I my my my um my interest uh in in learning more and digging, getting back to the Bible and just reading the Bible instead of as kind of a uh as a rational exercise or an extra scholarly exercise, but reading it as if someone is talking to me. Yes, it changed everything. And I read through the the the New Testament front front to back all in once as a narrative, and all of a sudden it struck me. And um, you know, I I love Tim Keller uh uh uh Rest in Peace. Uh but he I listened to his podcast, and and after uh this had actually happened to me, um, I heard him say it, and I'm like, yes, that's it. Um because he says at some point, right? So Bertrand Russell, the great philosopher, once said he was an he was a famous atheist, right? And he said, they, you know, when when asked, what are you gonna do when you get, you know, when you die and you're uh before Saint Peter, right? And uh uh, you know, he challenges you on your atheism, he's gonna Bertrand Russell said, Well, uh, I'll tell him God should have given me a better argument, right? That's a philosopher's answer. And um what I began to discover, and what uh what Tim Keller put so well is God did not give us an airtight argument, God gave us an airtight person. Yes. Um and and it is a relationship with that person that you build and the trust comes. And and don't get me wrong, as I've gone back and read an apologetics and and done my own thinking in this space, there is plenty of rational justification for the Christian faith, right?

SPEAKER_03 11:56

From from science it's robust enough to with the to withstand the weight. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

That's right. That's right. It totally is. And and from science to philosophy, it is grounded, and I think the bet the best reasons are in support uh of Christianity, and that uh Jesus Christ is a is a son of God and uh uh died uh uh to to uh uh save us from um death. And if we claim his blood, um we are saved, right? That that that that it is justified by reason, it is justified by science. Um that's a whole other conversation. But the point here is none of that became alive to me until I accepted Jesus as a person, as in in relationship. And then the proof came not just in reason, but in experience, right? Um in prayer, my life started changing and I started transforming. So at about that time, right, I got this opportunity to come to Mississippi College to teach. That was in 2010. Uh, my wife and I made the decision that we were gonna start building life here. My oldest daughter took her first steps here. Um, and then I've had two children uh uh since that time who are born and raised Mississippians. Wow. In 2022, I became dean of uh MC Law. And uh and and I will say another kind of uh spot in this journey, this faith walk, is uh Pedro Point, right? It's coming to Mississippi because uh I also prior to coming here never knew what it was like to be in a faith community. Um didn't have it in California, didn't have it in Virginia, didn't have it in DC. Uh and when I came here and felt what it was like to be integrated in a church body to where we are loving on each other, supporting one another, lifting one another up in times of sorrow and pain and and suffering, but also encouraging and celebrating together on Wednesday nights and on Sunday mornings. Um that, right, you see the spirit move, you see the power. Uh and it's it's something life-altering. Um, and and a lot, I think a lot of people in Mississippi can't maybe appreciate it with the same perspective that I have, being in and having lived in kind of cultural spaces where that is not the norm, right? Walking up to someone in in um some communities and asking them where they go to church is a is an offensive question, right? And and here it's it's uh it's a totally, of course you're gonna ask that question, right? And that is, you know, that is that is, I think, really neat about Mississippi. It doesn't mean everyone's the of the same faith. It it doesn't mean we go to the same churches. It doesn't even mean that uh, you know, everyone here are Christians. They're not, right? But they but but the culture is such that asking questions about faith is totally welcomed and expected. And that's such a healthy environment, I think. And I'm so grateful to be here and to be able to raise my children in it. Um, so that's kind of a story of my faith, faith walk. Um

Embodied Community Versus Faux Community

SPEAKER_00 15:21

and talk a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 15:23

I was just about to say, Dean Adams, I mean, first of all, it's an incredible story. And I mean, the I just want to kind of piggyback on that last thing that you said. I mean, the the culture, the culture of faith being accepted and being welcomed is a is is is a sweet part of our of our of our um region that we're in. And um, but but yeah, I mean, like you said, there is a sense in which we may not even appreciate the value of some of these elements, some of these means of grace, like the communal element, right? Um I I'm I'm certainly guilty of not appreciating the gift that God gives me in the in the community of faith and the people around me uh to encourage me, to spur me on to towards good works, as Hebrews 10 tells us, you know, and so I'm certainly guilty of that, especially in a culture that is more digitized, uh more online than ever before. Uh, we've created a lot of folk communities, if you will, that that feel like community, but is but still is missing that that element of presence that means so much to community. And we've kind of we've kind of taken those as replacements for community. And so, and so we burn all of our social social energy and social capital in spaces that are still really distant, and we don't feel like engaging in spaces that are fully embodied, and then we wonder why things are taking the turn that they're taking in terms of division, anxiety, all these types of things. And I feel like at the heart of a lot of that, the loneliness, the isolation, the division, you know, at the heart of a lot of that is this missing element of being fully invested in space in place with people, and that fully embodied human experience that God has crafted us and made us to be a part of, that we tend to substitute for these kind of faux um communities, if you will. Um, and here's one more thing I want to pick your brain about. This is definitely a sidebar, but but you you you mentioned the philosophy degree, and that as a you know, as a PhD with philosophy, hey, there's only one place to go. That's the university, you know, there's not a whole lot of places to go with that. Do you feel like we are in a moment where the the hard push to uh to to have degrees that are marketable, that are, that are ready-made for the workplace, that are, you know, that are that have the maximum earning potential and and creating this kind of demand and expectation that every degree should have this kind of maximum earning potential? Do you feel that that's causing us to lose some things that maybe we need? Like, I mean, just because you know, you know, the Corps of Engineers isn't hiring philosophers don't mean we don't need philosophers, you know. Um is that is that's is that something that you've given some thought to in terms of what we might lose in this kind of pedal to the metal push towards maximum marketability as it relates to degrees and education and scholarship?

Are Marketable Degrees Enough

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Yeah, I mean, I I do think that has always kind of been an issue in our society, right? We are a very kind of driven uh materialistic society, um, and it's produced a lot of great things, right? That's that kind of competition and that um that uh you know uh um focus on on kind of uh commercial exchange and you know what are you bringing to the marketplace, right? Um it has produced wealth, it has increased the size of the pie, there's no doubt about it, but it has it has drawbacks, right? Because it does force you to try to say to to um you know quantify your or or justify your existence in terms of price, right? Like what what what what are you generating, right? What how are you, you know, and and that's measured in terms of maybe your income or what you give or what you're able to give because of what you earn. And so we start early on with this messaging to our children, right? What are you gonna do with that? What how are you gonna make something of your life you know, if you if you get a degree in this, that, or the other? Um and I do think that that is uh that's kind of mercenary and it's it's means end reasoning that that uh kind of teaches our our children or our young people the wrong lessons. Um on the other hand, right, we do have to we do have to think about how God is calling us and how we're going to uh contribute, right? Because, you know, he he I believe, you know, he gives us each unique gifts, and he expects us to use those gifts to lift, you know, to to uh magnify his name and his glory, but also to lift up our brothers and sisters, right? Uh and so we do have that responsibility. So we have to be asking ourselves, right? Okay, yeah, I have a passion for musical theater. That's one of my daughter does, right? My daughter's really into musical theater. And I've encouraged her, I said, then you should follow that passion in undergrad. But do think about how you're gonna use that passion to uh follow God's plan for your life. Yeah. Um, and that may not be on Broadway because we know how unrealistic that is just in this world, right? It's you know, no matter how talented you are, you're also gonna need a bunch of luck to be able to make a career off of musical theater. So think about what, but you will develop amazing talents, right? You will develop these wonderful, this wonderful talent of being able to be present with people and comfortable on a camera, comfortable in front of an audience, comfortable, you know, maybe uh changing how you are presenting yourself to get a point across or to get comfortable with someone else. Brian, you come to the law school uh twice a year to teach our students about how to create an environment with people who are very different from them where they can feel welcome even though you don't look like them, you don't think like them, you don't necessarily talk like them, you may be 20 years older than that person you're talking to, or 20 years younger, right? Lots of ways in which you're uncomfortable. But but but the the skills that you learn, for example, in musical theater are going to help you in that space because you're used to stepping into other people's shoes all the time as a as an activist. So I guess I use that as just one example of these these degrees teach real life skills, but you do need to be thinking ha ahead and play chess rather than checkers about how how does this fit into God's plan for my life.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

And um so a lot, I'm a I'm I'm the dean of law school, right? A lot of people come to law school because they followed a passion, developed skills in undergrad, and now they want a more specialized way to apply that in the marketplace to give back. Um and that's what law school can offer. Because listen, you can be musical theater and come to law school. You can be pre-med and come to law school, do medical malpractice or health law, right? Absolutely. So uh drama majors are excellent litigators, right? There are uh you can pretty much bring any background to law school, and there's gonna be an application to it. Um so I don't know if that if that answers your question.

SPEAKER_03 23:17

It does. It does it does, Dana. I understand. And that and that I think I think what you're what you're speaking to is the kind of balance that that that brings brings a necessary good to society. I mean, like you like you mentioned, it you know, we it it's it's it's one thing to think about living and and earning a living, producing a living. It's another thing to uh to think about it in such a way that you just kind of cast aside uh some of these values that you find in the arts and some of these values that you find in humanities, philosophy. You know, there there's something there are still things to be learned in these spaces, even if they don't always create an environment for maximum earning potential. Um, or in some cases they do. I mean, if you end up specializing that field, yeah, you can name your price in the arts and places like that. Uh, but most of us, like you said, aren't going to be there, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't have value to have engagement in that space. So, yeah, I think you're I think you're getting right at the heart of where where where uh where where my heart is in terms of thinking

Integrating Faith At MC Law

SPEAKER_03 24:21

through this. And and I mean I want to pivot even back to you know some of the things regarding MC School of Law and just talk a little bit about the landscape of the of the of the law student, the law school, the the the um how you guys incorporate uh faith. Uh what's you know, what's kind of like your personal philosophy, as you uh, if you will, as it relates to how you engage, uh where God has placed you um and bring your whole self to where God has placed you. Talk a little bit about some of those things.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Sure. There's a lot going on there, right? So uh as you know, at uh at MC Law, we are a faith-based law school. We're Mississippi's only faith-based law school. Um and in fact, on June 1, we'll be uh we'll still be MC Law, but instead of being Mississippi College School of Law, we'll be Mississippi Christian School of Law with the name change um that is university-wide. Um and and I'm grateful for that name change because you know, again, it it is a it's a signal um uh that people of faith are welcome here. Yes. Um and uh and and I think that's important. And that really is uh our philosophy and how we integrate faith in the law school environment. So going back to you know, the the point that is always just the most important reminder to me, right? That God gave us not an airtight argument, but an airtight person.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

Um and it's about a relationship, right? Christianity is about an informed relationship, right? So yes, we want we anytime you're in a relationship with someone, you want to know everything about that person, right? So you do use your reason and study and learn, and and it's just a wonderful gift, right? That the the more I just the more I study the word and compare it to philosophy and science, the more I say it fits like a glove, right? There's nothing that there's but but the but to me what's important is, and this we've this is reflected in how we approach faith and and MC law, is it doesn't show up in doctrine. It doesn't show up in the classroom. We don't require our faculty members to teach uh you know scripture alongside contracts law, right? Now, as a faith-based school, if any one of our faculty members feel led to do that, they certainly could. But they have absolute academic freedom in the classroom, and uh there is no requirement of any kind of integration of doctrine in in the in those classes. Where it shows up is in the hallways, right? It shows up in the culture, it shows up in the environment, it shows up in the in the physical spaces that we create. And that goes back to it's about relationship, right? If it's about a relationship, you can't force someone into a relationship, you can't reason someone into a relationship. The relationship has to be a choice, yeah, and the choice comes because you're attracted to it, right? And how are you attracted to it? Well, we every faculty member at MC Law is a devoted Christian, right? Every staff member is as well, right? So uh in the hallways, you're gonna get loved on here, right? We're going to be uh Brian, you always talk about image bearers, right? Image bearers. We try to be image bearers and and we really work on that to create people joke, right? Uh laugh at me because I say I want to MC Law is gonna our goal is to make it the happiest uh law school on earth, the magic kingdom of law schools, right? We want we want you to walk in and feel that energy, that positivity, that love, that happiness, because we all feel that way, right? Because we are a community of faith. Yes. Um so it shows up in that way. It shows up, we see our students as individuals, not as numbers, uh, but also we create environments and opportunities, right? So with our uh we're in the middle of a $13 million renovation plan. Uh you've seen it, it's gorgeous, right? It's uh beautiful. We're halfway through it. Uh and um it looks amazing, inside and out, right? We've created a campus in downtown Jackson. Um, and it it is a is a beautiful place that I think is going to spread uh beauty throughout our our wonderful capital city. Agreed. Um and but but we we're we're intentional about the spaces we're created. So so we took what was just a small kind of meeting conference room and made it a prayer room, right? With three pews and candles and a big cross that was taken made by uh one of our uh security uh officers uh is a carpenter, and took wood from the renovations from the old building and carved it into a cross that is now in our prayer room with scripture on the wall and uh and a uh a prayer box um in there for students to drop their prayers in, and we have a prayer team who will pray over them. Um we also do weekly uh events with like last year we did an alpha program, right? Where we did an eat weekly Chick-fil-A and show up for an alpha video and discussion. Uh we did our worship night for the first time in the history of law school. We did a worship night this last year, and it was really well attended, partnered with three different churches. Um we create opportunities, right? And I I tell uh Christian Gaucher, who's our director of Law School Christian Ministries, and I said, Christian, our goal is to create opportunity and space for the spirit to move, and it will move. We're confident in that. So we're not pushing anything on anyone. We create opportunities for our students to be able to uh to take advantage of a faith environment, but we don't push it on anyone. Some may never take one advantage of a single one of those opportunities, but others are drawn to it and are brought to Christ through it. And we're we could not be more grateful for that.

SPEAKER_02 30:36

Taste and see that the Lord is good. Taste and see that the Lord is good.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

Yeah, we want we want our students to say, hey, what uh what has Dean Anderson got that I, you know, like I want them to see the joy of being saved in me, right? And say, what do you got? How how in the midst of all this insanity are you keeping positive? And it it's because I know that God has no plan B, right? He's this is this is all plan A. And uh we know that the victory's won. And we know that uh the enemy's in his death rows, and that's where, you know, that's why things are getting mixed up. And but we know who wins this. We know how this comes out. So absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 31:15

Yeah, good, a good uh uh, well, not necessarily a good friend. I don't know him that well. I know him, I know him decently, but but but an uh just a mentor from afar, so to speak. Uh Dr. Carl Ellis um oftentimes talks about pre um pre-conversion discipleship and post-conversion discipleship. And he says a lot of the pre-conversion discipleship is the the taste and see elements where people just get a chance to rub shoulders with people who are deeply committed to their faith in such a way that it's showing up in their interpersonal relationships. You know, it's not just showing up like you mentioned earlier, it's not just showing up in the information that they have and the knowledge that they have, but it's showing up in a transformative walk that has transformed them personally deeply, but has also transformed the way that they engage others deeply. And that right there is its own form of discipleship to those that have yet to believe that they see this walk and they say, my goodness, what what on earth and how on earth is this possible? I want this. I I need to know more about this. And and that, and that's some of the best, some of some of the best opportunities that we've been given uh to minister, um, especially in in spaces and places where everybody doesn't necessarily think the same or believe the same as as us.

Creating Space For The Spirit

SPEAKER_03 32:30

Talk to me a little bit about, you know, pivoting a little bit for a second as as we kind of round the turn and start kind of um uh landing this plane, you know, talk to me a little bit about the the work of reconciliation in a space like MC School of Law. And of course, as I'm I'm thinking about that, I'm thinking about even some of the work that we do in partnership together, but but the current state of play around civil discourse and and just how how do you teach people to navigate relationships in a healthy way, especially when you are entering in a space where there's so many different perspectives, so many different ideas about how to get things done. Um what what what do you think? Uh what do you see happening at the school of law that encourages you around those types of ideas?

SPEAKER_00 33:14

Yeah. Well, I I I am encouraged uh here at the law school in that I do think that uh the work that we've done to kind of create a uh a culture of um mutual support, acceptance, encouragement, um, love, kindness, um, that modeling really makes anyone who doesn't fit into that space feel uncomfortable. So like if you want to be a gossiper or you want to be uh someone who's you know really negative and always gonna look at the, you know, at the at what's going wrong, you you quickly will discover that you're kind of the odd person out, right? That no one, that you're not getting a group around you, oh, and I heard this and I heard that. Like it's like, hmm, okay, I'm gonna go find another conversation. Right. And um, I think that culture has definitely created a really healthy environment uh here, which is not to say that we don't have, you know, obviously, um listen, Jesus is not political, Jesus is not Republican, Jesus is not Democrat, uh, Jesus is not independent, right? Jesus is the Lord, right? Uh the King of Kings. And uh He he uh he's he's gonna uh find truth in some of these extreme political uh positions and and lies in it, right? On all sides, right? Just like he did in the in the day uh you know when he was when he was uh here uh and and challenging the Pharisees and challenging uh the authority in Rome. Um and he he's he was never predictable, right? He knows you could never say, oh, Jesus is you know uh liberal, oh Jesus is conservative. He'll never he'll never fit those molds if you read the the New Testament. So that's one thing we've just got to remember, right? That um, you know, to the extent we follow him, um we've got to step back from this narrative that is all about this world, right? We gotta remember that as Christians. And one thing that makes it easier for me is I'm so grateful I can be dean of a Christian law school because I can have this conversation and say it openly that this informs how I lead the school, right? Uh whereas if I were at a state university, I'd probably get fired for what you know saying that that faith is informing these decisions, right? But uh, but it's okay. And I love that. And I don't think I can do this job without being able to say this, right? Absolutely. Um that when I when I when we remember that, right, that that, and you say this, right? This is part of mission is said, go back to the gospel. Yes. Love God, love your neighbor, yeah, right? How can that those be your two guiding principles? And then all of a sudden you're saying this about someone because of the color of their skin. Yeah, or you're saying this about someone because of their ethnic background, or you're saying this about someone because of, you know, whatever, right? It whatever incongruent. It's incongruent. That's right. That's right. And so I think that um in these times and and culture and society goes through periods of disruption, goes through periods of uh of intense conflict, and oftentimes that can be a good thing, right? That it's it the discourse can be good, and that conflict can be good because something new comes of it, right? Um, and I do feel like at the same time that all of all of this political, you know, toxicity is going on in our nation, you're also seeing the church grow and move. I I I feel that way. I I'm seeing that, right? I mean, uh so many more people. When I when I grew up, there was no one listened to Christian music in their radio in the car, right? And I I I go into a barber shop, a grocery store, uh, and you've got Caleb, and you're, you know, and it I I feel like the spirit's moving. I I feel like there is that that we're uh on the verge of an awakening here. Um, but let me say this. Um uh a hundred more than 150 years ago, when this nation was in civil war, right, uh over uh uh a major issue that that was planted, its seed was planted in in the Declaration of Independence and Independence and the Constitution, that we weren't living up to the promise of this nation and that slavery had to be addressed, and it ended up being in a civil war that uh the opening shots of that battle you know were were fired, uh that we continue with here today, right? Abraham Lincoln said these words, right? He said that we have to disenthrall ourselves and then we shall save our country. But what did he mean by that? He meant we've got to step back and not be in this the this this toxic dialogue of this world. Let's step back to the promises of our Declaration of Independence, to the ideals of that document, to the promises of our constitution, the ideals of that document. Yes. How do we live into them and make those ideals a reality today, right? But also Lincoln was a man of faith, right? And I know he also had in mind love God, love your neighbor, yeah, right? Step back, right? And and let's disenthrall ourselves from this and say, what's important here? Yeah, yeah. I'll tell you one thing, right? Wow. Donald Trump was called by name before the beginning of time for a purpose. Yes. Barack Obama was called by name before the beginning of time for a purpose, right? Reader leaders on the right and left, they God has a plan for them and we need to pray for them. And we need to, we need to, whether we agree or disagree with them, right, on some political matter, right? We know that it really isn't important to Jesus, right? We got to pray for them that their heart can be softened, right? And that that we can that we can really um live as a community and love one another and have a vibrant political, civil political discourse, because that's necessary, right? We're not gonna always, we're we're not gonna agree. We should never agree, right? That's we're always working to try to make things better. And so that comes from from discourse and conflict. But um, what what we can't have is acrimony, what we can't have is toxicity, what we can't have is hard hearts. And so we got to pray for that. We got to pray for our leaders that their hearts will be softened so we can build a better community. And um and so we're we're trying to do that here at the law school, right? With soft hearts, right? We can have civil discourse and uh and and and talk about really difficult subjects that people are very in great disagreement about, um, but have it be a productive

Civil Discourse, Politics, And Prayer

SPEAKER_00 40:36

conversation.

SPEAKER_03 40:36

No, you're you're you you just you know, Dean Anderson, you just really hit hit the nail on the head in terms of even, you know, your your your call to your call for us to be praying for the leaders, you know, first Timothy two, chapter uh First Timothy chapter two, verses one and two. Um it says, I urge then, first of all, that petitions and prayers and intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people, for kings and all those in authority. And of course, Paul is writing in a time where kings, you talk about, you know, just kind of chaos and corruption and and wickedness. It was it was running rampant um and it was and it was all over the place. And he says to pray for them, pray for kings and all those in authority, and then he says this, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives and all godliness and holiness. And so, as he's he's praying to the end that we would be able to be unleashed to live the life that God has called us to live, to live a life that where this aroma and this and this beauty can be on full display that moves and draws people towards Jesus. And so he, and so that's that's the prayer. Um, it's not it's not for Christians to pray prayers in order so that we might seize power, this, that, and the other, but it's hey, we're gonna pray a prayer so that basically we are left to just simply live the life that God has called us to live and allow that aroma to be um to just emanate um throughout our culture and towards our brothers and sisters, both that know Jesus and and those that don't as well. And so, yeah, you're you're hitting the nail on the head. And I appreciate I appreciate the call um that you're giving in the culture that you guys are setting that uh MC School of Law to help establish that. I got one more question for you, and I'm gonna I'm gonna turn you loose. Um and I we mentioned it on the on the uh the pre-meeting that we had, but in a culture that you you know that you just kind of just espoused on and referenced um that that there's a lot of uh a lot of uh negativity, a lot of angst, anger, rage. Um and in many ways, I I'll use this term, functional nihilism. You know, there's there's people there's people out there that say openly and outright that nothing matters. Why even care about any of this stuff? But there are some people that say, well, it matters, but and we'll say that out, we'll say that openly, but functionally we're operating as if nothing matters anymore as well. What especially in the areas of politics and law and justice, many of these areas, you are uh right now responsible for raising up leaders that'll be engaging in these areas. How do you, and what do you guys do at MC School of Law to encourage this next generation of aspiring leaders in these spaces and places towards a vision that it does matter and that they do and that they do have an opportunity to shape and change a lot of the things that they're seeing for good? How do you guys encourage them in that direction?

SPEAKER_00 43:38

That's a that's a that's a good uh really good question. And it um, you know, I I think about it a lot, right? Because most students come to law school because they want to fight for justice, right? That they are idealists. And uh when I read these proposals. Personal statements of students who want to come to AMC Law, a lot of them are about hardship that they faced, uh, either their parents or a family member or they themselves. You know, we have students who came through the foster uh care system and had uh really difficult times um in their childhood now want to be a lawyer so that they can change that system for the better. I love hearing those stories because uh they're coming to law school for the right reason. And what I don't want them to do is become cynical or lose touch with that, with that passion and the fire that brought them here. Uh, we want to encourage it. We want to in we want to give oxygen to it, right? Um and so I think the key here there is to recognize these are really valuable and important goals, and don't ever let that you're gonna make money while you're achieving that goal. That's great, you know, that that will happen. But don't don't let money become the end, right? Other than as a as a side effect, as a kind of a ancillary consequence, right? You you want your your passion for justice to be the goal, and then everything else will fall into place, right? Um so that's one risk, right? That they that our students will will they came here for one reason, they came here with a with a goal, but then they're they're lured by opportunity that will take them away from their passion and their plan, right? Where uh where their abilities, their passion, and their purpose intersect. That's where they want, but that's where we want them to be. So what I try to do is encourage that. Um and uh also I I really you know, one image that I have uh of of where things go wrong is when we lose touch and sight of all the blessings we have, right? So what I try to encourage in our school is gratitude, right? You can't be grateful and be angry at someone, you can't be grateful and uh and um uh be gossiping, you can't be grateful and complaining, right? You you can't. We have so much. Some days I wake up and I say, I can see, I can hear, I can taste, yeah, right, all these wonderful blessings that God has given me. And why am I not just sitting here in awe of this creation, right? So it's as simple as just let's let's let's be grateful. Let's again go back to the disenthrall, like step back, let's be grateful for for what we have and what God has blessed us with, no matter what situation we're in. We have uh at a minimum, we have the cross to be grateful for. So let's be grateful. And when you when you come from that perspective of gratitude, then you appreciate everything before you. So there's an image that I kind of remind people of where things are going wrong. I say, are you playing with your food? Right? You've got a good relationship here, you've got a good job here, or you've got a good opportunity here, you've got a good you've got a good mind, and you've got rich and and wonderful uh uh uh scholarly, you know, interesting articles to read and things that are going on, right? Are you just sitting there playing with it, moving around on your plate? Or are you really consuming it and being nourished by it, right? And so to me, that's something I always check myself. Am I playing with my food, right? Because we get our daily bread every day. Are we playing with it? Or are we um are we grateful for it, thanking God for it, and and and chewing it and and and appreciating every bit of that taste, and then grateful for the nourishment it's providing us, whatever that is, whether it's a beautiful sunset, a wonderful book, reading scripture, a great lecture, um, an opportunity in uh in practice, um uh or or serving, right? Uh uh serving food to homeless on on Sunday afternoon, right? Um all of that, right? It's food and and we need not to play with it.

SPEAKER_02 48:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:41

Yes, yes, Dan Addison, thank you so much for the for the fresh reminder. As you were saying it and as you were espousing on it, I immediately was drawn towards Philippians 4, uh, where we're we're told uh what whatsoever's you know good and true and and right and pure and lovely and admirable, excellent, praiseworthy, think on these things. And and then and then it's there where it's where he says, and the peace of God, right, will cover you, protect you, guard your heart and mind. So so it's like in that passage where we often think about God's peace, what we don't realize is that Paul is offering us an antidote to the anxiety, to the nihilism, to the cynicism. And he's basically saying exactly what you're saying: gratitude, gratefulness, right? Love, purity, righteousness. Um, those things counter those um emerging feelings when we're surrounded uh by darkness. That's the light that we have to shine in the in the dark spaces in order to in order to find uh reclaim that peace and reclaim that hope that's offered to us in Christ.

Fighting Nihilism With Gratitude

SPEAKER_03 49:51

And so thank you so much for that. Dean Addison has been great, man. Um, how can people keep up with you and Mississippi College School or Mississippi Christian as of June 1st school law?

SPEAKER_00 50:01

That's right. That's right. Um, well, uh, of course, uh come by and visit us, right? I I love showing off our newly renovated spaces, that's an ongoing project. Uh uh and so I I would encourage anyone to come by and and visit us. We're just two blocks from the Capitol. We're just very proud of our Capital City location. We're very proud of our city of Jackson and and uh what we're doing to re to revitalize and renew. And um uh, but also we're uh our website, uh you can follow us or follow us there and also on social media, uh MC Law. Uh we're we're all over the place. So uh I would I would love to uh hear from all of your listener, listeners. And again, Brian, I'm just so grateful for you. I'm grateful for all you've done for the university, but also specifically for the law school and coming and and being with our students and and teaching them um you know some of the lessons that some of what I'm talking about that I'm trying to reinforce at the law school are lessons I've learned from your talks uh here. Uh and so we're grateful for Mission Mississippi. Um thank you.

SPEAKER_03 51:07

No, thank thank you, Danis. And thank you for that warm encouragement. That means a lot that we that we're making a difference um in the in the in the in the future of uh our aspiring leaders. So that's super encouraging to us. And thank you for all that you're doing uh for uh Mississippi, for MC, but also for the kingdom. We're incredibly grateful and thankful.

Closing, Subscribe, And Connect

SPEAKER_03 51:26

And uh for those that are listening in, we'd love for you to um listen to more uh stories around uh uh reconciliation, faith, and vocation. You can do so by going to Living Reconciled on any podcast app, searching for Living Reconciled, you'll find us. Uh also feel free to like, share, and subscribe. Um, that helps us get the word out about this podcast. If you need more information on this organization, this ministry called Mission Mississippi, you can do so by visiting missionmississippi.org. Again, missionmississippi.org. On behalf of my good friend Dean John Anderson, I am Brian Crawford signing off saying God bless. Thanks for joining Living Reconciled. If you would like more information on how you can be a part of the ongoing work of helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured, please visit us online at mid to mississippi.org or call us at 601-353-6477. Thanks again for listening.