Living Reconciled
Living Reconciled, hosted by Mission Mississippi, is a podcast dedicated to exploring reconciliation and the Gospel that enables us to live it out. Mission Mississippi has been leading the way in racial reconciliation in Mississippi for 31 years. Our model is to bring people together to build relationships across racial lines so they can work together to better their communities. Our mission is to encourage and demonstrate grace in the Body of Christ across racial lines so that communities throughout Mississippi can see practical evidence of the gospel message.
Living Reconciled
EP. 83: Bridging Divides with Jerome Douglas
We would love to hear from you! Send us a text message.
How does God turn pain into purpose? Jerome Douglas shares his journey from D.C.’s streets to leading neighborhood outreach at Redeemer Church in Jackson. With authenticity shaped by his past, Jerome brings reconciliation to life through multi-ethnic ministry, community outreach, and hope-filled vision for transformation.
📣 Join us for the Living Reconciled Celebration on September 25 at Mississippi College’s Anderson Hall as we continue the conversation on unity and renewal.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Mississippi College, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple Church, Mississippi State University, Real Christian Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters.
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated to giving our communities practical evidence of the gospel message by helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured for us by living with grace across racial lines. Hey, thanks so much for joining us on this episode of Living Reconciled. We are 80 plus episodes in to this journey that we started a couple of years back and we are incredibly excited for this episode. My name is Brian Crawford. I serve as the host of this podcast and I am, with some incredible friends and my co-host, Nettie Winters, Austin Hoyle. Gentlemen, how are you doing today?
Speaker 1:Doing great I'm doing as well as I can, as well as you can. That's a new one, that's a new response.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as well as I can, I wasn't ready for that one. But I mean that has to do with capacity. So is my capacity high or low? I don't know.
Speaker 1:We'll find out by the end of the podcast. But before we get there and dive deeply into Austin's emotional journey and his state of affairs as it relates to his life, we want to give a special thanks to our sponsors. State of affairs as it relates to his life we want to give a special thanks to our sponsors Nissan, st Dominic's Hospital, atmos, energy Regions Foundation, mississippi College, anderson United Methodist Church, grace Temple Church, mississippi State, real Christian Foundation, brown Missionary Baptist Christian Life Church, doris Powell, robert Ward and Winters. Thank you, guys so much. It's everything that you do that makes the things that we do possible, and today one of the things that we're doing at mission Mississippi and living reconciled is we are speaking to um another good friend and a special guest, pastor, jerome Douglas.
Speaker 1:Jerome Douglas is the director of neighborhood outreach and missions at Redeemer church and intentionally multi-ethnic church in the heart of Jackson, mississippi. Jerome is a DC native, washington DC born and raised, but Jerome has brought his gift and his family to the great state of Mississippi and to the community of Jackson. Jerome serves as an elder and pastor again at Redeemer Church and we are incredibly, incredibly blessed and excited to have our friend Jerome on our podcast. Brother, how are you doing?
Speaker 3:I'm good brother. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, yeah, we are looking forward to it as well. Why don't you start, brother? Just tell us a little bit about your story, man, your story of faith, your story of life and how the Lord brought you to the place that you currently are in the heart of the city.
Speaker 3:Yeah, man, first of all, the intro. I think did a lot for it already. But yeah, born and raised in Washington DC in the 90s, my two parents, who were 17 and 16 when they had me, so they dropped out of high school to take care of me. They were boyfriend and girlfriend. They broke up when my mom was pregnant. So I kind of had the typical inner city hood life, right, where my dad did street things and so did my mom. But man, but man didn't really notice it. You know it was. You know I would say man, growing up was fun in dc. Love, love my hometown. Love watching fireworks. Uh, down to my event on forward july um, love going to the zoo on easter mondays. Um, to me, yeah, boy, I'm a true washingtonian, so love all dc sports too.
Speaker 2:Um, I kind of grew up in a you know, even the wizards, even the wizards, the wizards, oh my goodness fashion news the caps all dc you are a true washingtonian man oh yeah, you're able to
Speaker 3:suffer through the wizards brother, oh man, and still suffering. So pray for me, doc. Um, but yeah, man, so you know, um, my, my, my family, particularly my mom. I spent most of my time with her. She was, as I would call, you know, nominally Christian. You know my grandfather, her dad was a minister and she would be a self-proclaimed minister too. So we kind of grew up around church stuff. We didn't go to church regularly, though we pray regularly.
Speaker 3:I remember being forced to memorize Psalms and Proverbs, but about the age of nine or 10, both my parents went to prison for various things, went to prison for various things, and that Christian adjacency kind of left with my mom and I was kind of left on my own. I kind of was doing my own thing. I wanted to go live with some family members for a bit, but eventually started bouncing around. By the time I got to 14, 15, I was old enough and mature enough to be at girlfriend's house, and so I kind of left the church stuff behind, even though I was still call myself a Christian. It wasn't until I got to my senior high school and I got close to a guy named Gabriel out of out of Maryland. We went to the same upper bound program because I was still. I was good in school, so I did it over the summers to make money. He had became a Christian his freshman year of college and once I graduated I couldn't finish, I couldn't afford to go to college. So I kind of was just in DC doing normal DC stuff.
Speaker 3:In DC, doing normal DC stuff, I was promoting, promoting parties and clubs, and um, and I would go to his, his dorm, to hang out with him, to go to parties, and he was my boy, so we would kick it on campus, uh, um, and eventually he became a Christian cause. He too was normally Christian too. Uh, we, we. We later learned it was the girls down the hallway from from him that was praying for us to become Christians. But anyway, he goes to a Christian conference. He's like man. I got to get my boy on the same wave as me and so he invites me to come to this conference. And it was at a conference where I heard the song Moving Forward by Israel Halton that really convicted me of my sin and really set me on a trajectory to be you know in the Lord and live faithfully with him. And honestly, I haven't been the same since I went.
Speaker 3:What I thought cold turkey, from a lot of stuff, from street life to girls to alcohol and man, I went, I dove head first into Bible studies on campus. Uh, so much so that I ended up planting uh one with a friend down at Howard University where, um, my now wife walks into the first one. Um, and her and her friends and me and my boys, we all were friends walking the Lord together. We eventually started dating and she's like hey, I'm going back home for medical school in Jackson and I'm like, all right, I've been walking with the Lord now for about a year and a half. I'm trying to get my life together. Now I guess I'll follow you down. You know I always wanted to go to college and so I did. I followed down here, went to Jackson State, got my degree in marketing and being here was super formative. I got LinkedIn with two mentors, moved away for about 10 years. I went into working marketing in corporate America for about 10 years. Jerome, can we take?
Speaker 2:a pause right here. Yeah, yeah sure, okay. Did God bring you to Jackson or your wife brought you to Jackson? How?
Speaker 3:did that work? The lord did through my wife, the lord did through my wife.
Speaker 1:There you go there you go, he has a way he has a way of doing that, doesn't he?
Speaker 3:he does, man, and I'll fast for you. So we I wanted to. I wanted to go work in corporate america about 10 years doing marketing, about halfway through calling ministry, and so my wife finished her medical training. We moved back to Jackson where I took the role I have now at the church. So that's pretty much my story and how I got to where I am now.
Speaker 1:Man, jerome, that's amazing. Now jump in, eddie. You got it, brother.
Speaker 2:I was just going to say you know, when you first announced that he was from DC, the first thing in my mind how do you get from DC to Jackson? Man, I went from Jackson to DC, but how do you do that? And it's clear that that woman that you claim God used to get you back here is okay, I guess.
Speaker 3:If you insist that God did it, it's okay. Yeah, she's pretty solid man.
Speaker 1:Absolutely brother.
Speaker 2:Jump in Austin man Jump in. I was just saying. God works through women All the time.
Speaker 1:All the time, even women praying for you down the hall in the campus dorm rooms, which is amazing, man.
Speaker 3:It was very amazing. We never knew. It wasn't until much later where they came to us and said man like wow, man, we have been praying for you guys all semester to follow the Lord. And I was like man, well, I guess the Lord heard you, because here we are now. I know.
Speaker 2:Gaff, the Lord did hear. I guess the Lord heard you, because here we are now I know. Yeah, the Lord did hear.
Speaker 1:So tell us a little bit about your work at Redeemer Jerome, how obviously the Lord sent you there specifically for that work. Tell us a little bit about that work.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So as the neighborhood outreach and mission director, it's essentially my job to connect our church to our community and the community to our church. That's one arm. That's the outreach arm. Then there's the mission arm where I'm discipling our church to be missional and I'm caring for our mission partners, who we support. Who we support, whether it be by overseeing the mission, giving you know, checking in on them, praying for them and also leading our mission committee to help the Cyborg Church in the effort as well.
Speaker 3:So a pretty big job. I mean under that comes marketing and social media as well as mercy ministry. So I tackle a lot at the job. I think part of when the job was recommended to me by Pastor L before I applied, I think what drew me to the job, because I put the job application before my friends and my pastors at the time and I just asked them hey, do you think this sounds like my gifts? Does this fit along with what you think might be a calling for me? I mean, I want to be a pastor, but this seems a little different and everyone was extremely encouraging.
Speaker 3:I think part of it is just my passion for missions, my passion for apologetics, for defending the faith. I'm a galvanizer, so I love connecting people, bringing people into the fold, making them feel welcome, and I made my life much of my life has been outside man, so I think part of the job is being outside and being connected and being a friendly face to people who are experiencing some of the things I experienced growing up, and so that's essentially my job. My job is to be, you know, pretty much a picture of hope for people that's like me out in Jackson on the neighborhood, and finding ways to connect them to our church, or any church for that matter. As long as they're in a faithful Bible-believing church, they can come out of the spot or not, but that's kind of my role at the church right now faithful Bible-believing church they can come out and spy or not, but that's kind of my role at the church right now.
Speaker 1:Hey, it's interesting, you know, just even talking about how you started thinking about or started asking trusted friends and your trusted circle, how your gifting aligned with the position and then connecting that thought to the earlier stories that you were sharing about your upbringing. Do you see some of that? Like you know, we talk about how God, how God has a way of using everything Right. Our past are. You know the pains, the traumas. You know the, the things that we think he has no use for. He has a fine, he has a way of seemingly using that. Do you see that, even as you know, as you were sharing with us, you're DJing and you know you're kind of the ability to galvanize and get people together and rally people for parties and all that. Do you even see some of that kind of being God's, having God's hand on it and using it even today and just kind of that? That, just that whole experience?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I mean of course not in the moment, but I do a lot of reflection about it. I mean it's like, yeah, I see a lot of the way the Lord gifts us and, and and Moses, particularly for the. What are the things we're to do is how he shapes our lives. Even think about, you know, I know we'll eventually get to topics around reconciliation, but because our church is intentionally multi-ethnic and by that it means that we are trying to intentionally pursue all that is in our area, in our parish, which is a multi-ethnic area in that predominantly black, we have a growing Hispanic population moving in. We have a white American across the other side of the road, also in our parish. Even as you think about that, as I think about growing up in DC, my high school, my elementary school, my middle school and high school predominantly Hispanic 60, 70 percent Hispanic. As you think about DC now, it used to be Chocolate City. Now it's more like Milk Chocolate City, as you have gentrification all kind of stuff happening in DC.
Speaker 3:But, man, I grew up with having, you know, white teachers and Hispanic friends and being predominantly black neighborhood.
Speaker 3:And then, on top of that, you know, I go through high school and I go and work in corporate America where I'm the only black guy on my team, I'm the only black man in the entire brand managing department.
Speaker 3:And so the way I think about my life, the Lord has kind of put me in these spaces where I'm having to navigate culturally, whether it be for my Black culture or for being a guy or being from DC. Here I am, I'm a big city guy. Now in the South, I see all of the Lord Like no, like I've sort of put you in these mixed cultural spaces for this. So that's why one of the reasons why I even pursued the road and got behind the mission of Redeemer because I'm like, as I look back at my life man like the Lord has been already shaping me and motivating me to be in these spaces. Shaping me and motivating me to be in these spaces, and so now, jumping across cultures and doing that cultural dance, throwing that perfect, have a ton of life experience of doing it and it just fits well. So, yeah, I definitely see the lowest hand in my past life fueling and definitely shaping for what I'm doing now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, man, how do you think your passion for the neighborhood, passion for the block, do you see that as being also shaped by you being a child of the block? You know, like you mentioned, you know, early on, kind of seeing some of those, some of those you know systemic kind of issues that are pervasive, that we know about talking about. You know father mother and seeing that divide early, seeing seeing the father mother. You know kind of succumb to succumb to the, the, the, the, the trouble of the, the, the, the trouble of the streets, so to speak, with the, with the imprisonments, and then having to kind of navigate all of that kind of stuff. Do you see that as having a? Um driving in you a passion, a heart, an empathy, uh, for the block, for the communities, um that God has, um, um surf and and and circle Redeemer around?
Speaker 3:Oh for sure. I mean, I've sort of made them in my mind and hopefully this is aligned with the Lord's will. It seemed to be so far that I'm always going to be doing ministry to the block, to folks like me, just because in many ways I feel like this is an underrepresented, untapped people group that has people that can speak their language, that know their experiences, can feel what they feel and be able to say, man, the Lord saved me, you know, and there's hope, and to be a picture of that man. For sure, I definitely think that experience I had growing up, and even as a, as a, as a upper teenager, fueling and being a real driving force for what I do now. And I and I'll also add that part of the reason why I even think I'm alive today in the faith is because other folks are doing that for me. I remember the church down the road sending a church van on Tuesday night to pick up kids out of the neighborhood, to take us back to the church, to feed us hot dogs and teach us the Bible. I didn't know what was going on, I just thought it was free food, but it was the church reaching out to us in the neighborhood, taking us to the streets for one night.
Speaker 3:Remember the Presbyterian church in downtown DC called Community Club having a tutoring program. You met twice a week with a mentor who was working in some corporation, who taught you how to do your homework. Who was a mentor to you and fed you and paid you for having good grades so that was motivation to do your homework. Who was a mentor to you and fed you and paid you for having good grades so that was motivation to do well in school. I got a mentor man who loved me and cared for me, even though he was Islamic man I still think about Omar to this day who took me on my first college tour.
Speaker 3:But it was through that church that put together that tutoring program to help kids like me from inner city to get connected to somebody who would be young enough to relate to me but also old enough for me to look up to and smart enough to help me with school. So, yeah, it was other places doing that for me, and so not only am I full of quote unquote experience in inner city because of my own life, but I've benefited from the church doing that for folks like me and I find it as man. That's the Lord just working his own little way to draw me to himself. So yeah, I definitely think that's a driving passion for me. Now for sure.
Speaker 2:So how do you use that experience, Jerome, to affect the community you live in here now?
Speaker 3:Man, I'm outside, I mean, I'm kind of doing the same thing people were doing. You know, for mean, like you know, for example, you know a couple of things I've done the church we do like these I call them corner cookouts where you know I meet somebody in the community. Man, can I set up a grill at your house and invite your neighbors out and we just eat burgers and hot dogs and just chop it up with some card games and music so I can get to know you. You can meet people at the church and we can be, you know, a communication and connection and praying for you.
Speaker 3:I'm essentially, many ways applying what I thought many folks applied to me, which is what many coin as incarnational ministry, where we're just present, being faithful, showing up.
Speaker 3:You know, get into people's lives.
Speaker 3:You know, when I, when I see somebody that has the outer appearance of being street lead, I'm not looking at them with a side eye off the rip, I'm seeing them as a person, as an image bearer, because I know myself as like that.
Speaker 3:When I see a young dude who wrestling with, like man, I'm hungry, I need food and the only option I have is to sell drugs, like I can identify with that and I can be with the guys on the block where for me was hey, drugs like. I can identify with that and I can be with the guys on the block where for me was hey, you don't need to do that, there's a different way for that. So the ways I'm applying is I'm being present, I'm speaking into people's lives, I'm essentially employing some of the things I thought would benefit me to others and I'm also doing some you know, of course cultural intelligence work to see what they might find to be beneficial and then actually executing that. So those are the ways. I think that I'm applying what I experienced to my, to my own circumstances.
Speaker 2:Now, that's great, man, that's a wonderful idea that you don't invite folks to your place to eat, but you take it on yourself to invite yourself to them. Yeah, and bring the food with you. Yeah, man, I needed that. I needed that man. I'm in, I'm living in the wrong neighborhood, man, yeah, man.
Speaker 3:We got a cellar in my house.
Speaker 2:A man, can I use your yard for a cookout? I'm going to invite your neighbors and I'm going to feed y'all Nobody. I'm going to invite your neighbors in. I'm going to feed y'all Nobody invited me.
Speaker 3:Maybe I should try to maybe get something going.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it makes me want to go move back up to Jackson, man. I would love for you to set up camp in my house, man, but I don't live there anymore, so you can't but.
Speaker 1:I'm hungry man, you know. First of all, I'm blown away in terms of just how God, how God takes our stories and uses them for his glory. And so I'm blown away just listening to yours, jerome, like I told, like I said at the from the beginning, your story is always intriguing to me just because of how interwoven where you are today is is to where you were and where God brought you from. But the other piece in this that I think is an important piece that you kind of mentioned, is that there are times in which, you know, churches embark on outreach efforts, community outreach efforts, and they're looking for those quick wins and those immediate wins, for those quick wins and those immediate wins, and they tend to discount the Jerome Douglases that they're impacting and affecting, that this child is being shaped, being molded, that God has use for this child and all of these seeds that you guys have planted are going to bring forth a harvest in this child.
Speaker 1:But you're looking for the immediate, and so a lot of times churches will grow discouraged or they'll tap out, they'll quit, they'll say, ok, this isn't bringing any benefit, we're not seeing the numbers, we're not seeing the return, and they'll kind of tap out and they'll quit not understanding that there's a long game. There's a long game philosophy that we need to apply to this, because there's. There's Jerome Douglas's that we're educating, there's Jerome Douglas's that we're feeding in this moment. You know, I mean, one of the stories that always comes to mind in my own life story is I see people, even to this day, uh, grown men, come up to me and um and and have these conversations with me about man.
Speaker 1:I remember when your father you know, brought, brought the van down and picked us all up and took us to the Waffle House and we got to. Man, that was my first time eating at the Waffle House. Man, I'll never forget. Man, I appreciate you, I appreciate your dad and the love he showed the block, love he showed the neighborhood Right and and me, and even in that moment, probably for them it was just OK somebody going to take us out to eat at the Wabhouse, but there was a seed that was planted and it lingered in the impact and the effect, just like the stories of pain that we experience Right, there could be these slices of moments that we experience that linger with us, slices of moments that we experience that linger with us.
Speaker 1:But just like there's slices of pain that linger with us, these moments of pain in our stories, there's also incredible opportunities that the church can invest in these moments of light, in these moments of goodness, these moments of righteousness and love and mercy and grace that lingers with children. And we might not see the immediate impact. Right, that kid might get off the van, get off the bus. He doesn't even look like it. You know he appreciated it that much, at least from what you can see.
Speaker 1:But man, there is so much happening in those moments that we can't discount right. And so I just love that bro.
Speaker 3:Yeah, man, that's been my approach as we think about critical on-the-block ministry is the frying pan stuff, so that we can do quick wins. And we look for the people that you know, we meet them, we share the gospel with them and their eyes open and, like man, I want to meet with you every day. You know I've had, and God has been kind enough to allow me to see through to that. He doesn't have to. He called me to be faithful.
Speaker 2:And so I'm grateful to see through to that.
Speaker 3:But I know from the majority of what we're going to do is the crock pot ministry. You know that slow cooking, that it's going to be in there for a while, if I can borrow from Doug Logan, you know it's going that that 24 hour letting that thing sit and then marinate and cook over time and um and so it's, it's the both, and that for sure that I'm, I'm, my expectations are set towards that. You know cause. I recognize that when one is different in every circumstance is different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's phenomenal, man, that's phenomenal.
Speaker 1:Talk to us about the landscape of reconciliation man, as you think, about Redeemer. Oftentimes, at least in the city of Jackson, jackson is kind of held up as a beautiful picture of what could be when we are engaged in the work of healing across ethnic lines, cultural lines, intentional in that work, intentional in that engagement. Talk to us. Obviously, we know that God is just kind of breathing life on that work in a way that we can't explain, we can't articulate. But then also he leverages some of those intentional plans and intentional strategies that that, that um, that we use as well. So talk to us about some of the things that you guys are doing specifically intentionally to not just simply create a space for a multi-ethnic ministry but also to hold that space, which is, I, you know, as a multi-ethnic pastor, I feel like that's the harder work. It's not just simply to create the space but to hold it in the midst of all the tensions that the culture can introduce to that. So talk to us a little bit about some of the things that Redeemer does.
Speaker 3:You know I mean, if anybody knows anything about Redeemer, they've been doing this for a long time, and so, in many ways, what I've come into is the fruit of what people have done before me, and so I'm benefiting we all are benefiting from the work that folks have done before us, and it's still, you know, always got to say that there's still a long way to go. Some of the things I'll mention, though, that I think are important. As you think about reconciliation ministry, or reconciling ministry, is one, it feels like from my perspective and, of course, from the perspective of others that I've talked to, we just don't shy away from the topic. It's something that, when we're preaching through a series, it's something that's going to be mentioned from the pulpit faithfully. Preaching through a series, it's something that's going to be mentioned from the pulpit faithfully.
Speaker 3:When you hear our mission statement being said before most church services, as we're welcoming people into the building for that Sunday morning, whether it be guests or members, you're hearing it from our mission statement that we're a multi-ethnic church. So not only are we talking about it from the pulpit, but we're studying it together. You know we do summer book studies as a church. More often than not, it's a book that is geared towards thinking about reconciliation. Last book we did this past summer is called All Are Welcome, and that book really dove into some of the history of racialization in our country.
Speaker 1:All Are Welcome.
Speaker 3:All Are Welcome yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, and who's the author of that book? Just for our listening audience.
Speaker 3:Man, you're going to hate me. It's a bunch of authors. I cannot remember the author off the top of my mind.
Speaker 3:But I know it's free, all good, okay, good, good, oh, that's even better, that's even better, but but yeah all are welcome, all are welcome, yeah, but yeah, so, you know, over the summer we try to most more often than not over the summer try to tap into a resource that helps us pause and focus in on reconciliation. Just, you know, during our Redeemer Together, we have an event that happens every two years, where we try to bring in everybody of our church and do a retreat together and more often than not, that topic is around how to be a church of multi-everything. In many ways, we even you know, if you think about what we do as a church, we try to have a balanced approach, even from a mission side. As we think about what we do as a church, we try to have a balanced approach, even from a mission side. When I think about who we support as missionaries, I want to have a balanced approach.
Speaker 3:We're supporting not only big churches and big missional efforts, but I'm looking out for the little guys, the urban ministry, or folks from you know, black missionaries, black women, for example, even. Or folks from you know, black missionaries, black women, for example. Even. As we think about our staff, we intentionally try to staff according to our demographics. So you'll see that our pastor and church staff is going to be a mix of race as well as genders, and so there's a host of additional things. But I would say, the way we intentionally try to use our funds, try to have a thing about staff in the church, the things we talk about from the pulpit, what we read, all those different things, I think are just reinforcing the mission statement and the history of the church, which is all geared most of it is geared towards reconciliation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, that's good. Tell us a little bit about the challenges you face.
Speaker 3:Man, you know. So on both sides there's always some hints of mistrust.
Speaker 2:Just hints, huh mistrust Um just hints, huh.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, I guess, I guess I guess it's real, real mistrust and, to be honest, um, not not to, you know, I don't. I don't want to embarrass our church, but there's probably some um, and sometimes that can be frustrating because you're like man, it felt like we're, you know, it felt like we're making good strides, but there are still pockets of, you know, mistrust for some folks. Uh, so I would say that's, that's some of the challenges, trying to get people to trust each other. Um, I think it's. The second challenge is I'm not, I think it's the book. I think it's a book. It's called Do All the Black Kids Sit at the Same Table? I forget the name of the book, but there's a, there's a.
Speaker 2:Why Are All the Black Children Set Together in the Cafeteria?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think it's Michelle and the Tender.
Speaker 3:So this theme plays a role in our church in some ways, in that I had one guy come to our church and he said, bro, y'all talk about reconciliation and I hear it from the pulpit. I know y'all reading the book and that's great. But when I walk into the church doors I see everybody broken up into silos. He's like what's that about? I'm like man, that's a good point, you know, that makes sense. It's like you walk into the building and you got, you know, a group of white people here, a group of black people there, a group of white women there, black women, black guys there, and I'm like man. That's true. I think that is part of our church struggle, where in many ways you just you gravitate to who you're more familiar with or who you have more in common with, or who is easier to talk to, or who is easier to talk to, and so that's for better or for worse, right, but it's still a challenge that you got to get people to say all right, take an extra step to get outside of your comfort zone and meet some new people. But one of the things I try to encourage this young man in is that you see this on Sunday. But if you go to our community groups, you'll see that much more mixed in. But again, even our community groups is a challenge because our community groups are based off of geography and typically Jackson is geographically segregated, even though we may not say that there are pockets where it's also ethnic. But, like even our own parish, one side on the side drive is 80, 90% black. The other side on the side drive is 80, 90% white, and so if you have a community group on both sides of the street, what do you think they're going to look like? You know? So that's another challenge that we so, I think, a lot of these challenges you've got to push people to get outside of their cover zone.
Speaker 3:I'll say this last thing and I'll let you guys go to another question. Probably the greatest challenge I feel is Probably the greatest challenge, though I feel is Black people feeling like they're part of the work. In our church we like to say that white people pour in and Black people trinkle in, and that's because one our denomination is traditionally denomination is traditionally more white-dominant the PCA, but also when you think about a predominantly white church, I think we're 70% white, maybe 60% white and maybe 30% Black. When you think about that. It's just uncomfortable for us to walk into a predominantly white space, no matter if there's a lot of Black people here or not, especially when you've got a traditionally black church down the street that I can go to Um and so to get brothers and sisters to be a part of this work is a challenge, but I I mean but even in that, though, man we have man, as I mentioned, 30, but 30% black.
Speaker 3:We have a lot of people who are just committed to the work and who are all about the church's mission of reaching our neighborhood and, you know, proclaiming the gospel, and and they're willing to do that with white counterparts.
Speaker 1:So those are some of the challenges I say we face, probably like most churches yeah, yeah, I mean, I think, I think you're spot on man, and we oftentimes like to say you know, even you know the miss mississippi, but certainly a city like um. I say it often you know as a pastor pastor there that the current of relationships always flows to the familiar and and so that's, that's, that's the downstream. The downstream is familiar. So you walk in, you look for people who look like you, maybe, maybe, maybe they might vote like me, maybe they certainly talk like me. All right, let me, let me navigate to those folks and then we can compare, you know, we can compare albums and records and songs that we listen to and TV shows that we watch and all that kind of stuff, and and really what the work is, the spiritual empowerment to swim upstream.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you know it's to swim against the current of familiar and to engage in the unfamiliar, the uncomfortable and actually, for the glory of God and for the joy of the church right, build coalitions that extend beyond people that look like me, think like me, vote like me, watch the same TV shows, all those types of things, and that's where the real work has to happen.
Speaker 1:Shows, all those types of things, and that's where the real work has to happen so we can naturally without the Spirit's aid and help, we can naturally show up at a place and then find those silos that we connect most with. The spiritual work is the work of being able to cross into these other spaces and into these other domains of the unfamiliar, the uncomfortable, and so, like you mentioned, this is a challenge that faces the church all the time, no matter whether it's a multi-ethnic church or whether it's a church that's monoethnic in the sense of where it is but it has a multi-ethnic neighborhood that it wants to engage. The work is always going to be to swim upstream and because, if you think about it like that, that means that it's a continuous work.
Speaker 1:You know, it's like okay the moment I stopped swimming and, being intentional, I'm going back downstream, I'm going back downstream. I have to continue to swim, I have to continue to be intentional in this work if I'm going to make the gains and then not only make them but preserve them and keep them again for the joy of the church and for the glory of God. So yeah, that's good man, that's good bro.
Speaker 3:And we've been again. I just have to say that, man, we've been tremendously blessed to have good leadership to encourage us in that effort, which is why I can say two things can exist at one time where, you know, white people and black people find it challenging to be in multi-party spaces together, because it requires both parties and that's not to say we don't have more parties than that, but it requires both parties to use your words to swim upstream, to use your words to swim upstream. And because of the encouragement of our leadership, man, I feel like we have a ton of people just committed to that. I've been surprised, man, to see, you know, I think, about one side of our parish that is, you know, predominantly Black, majority under the poverty line, 85% renters. I mean just economically, culturally, just on the margins, right, To see man, a 70-year-old white woman, be the first to sign up to go walk through the neighborhood and pray and meet people.
Speaker 3:I mean that doesn't happen without yes, for sure, having the Lord working through our leadership to really encourage us and empower us through the scriptures to be about this work. So yeah, but for sure, man, we have that challenge that many churches face. It's one of my strengths I've been grateful to find, as the person leading the missional efforts in the neighborhood, to find people at our church who are on and in about their work. So, man, love what the Lord is doing here and definitely got a lot more to grow.
Speaker 1:Yeah man, why don't you close this out by teasing? No, go ahead, nettie, jump in. Yeah man, why don't you close this?
Speaker 2:out by teasing no, go ahead, nettie, jump in. No, I'm just going to say you know your intentionality in those instances, jerome, for a person that takes this serious, your intentionality has got to be more intense or greater than the intentionality of those people that are present to not do it. You know, I find that even where I attend church, you know, I mentioned to the greeters you know you're placing all these black folks together, white folks together, why don't you just split them up? And a young lady looked at me and said, oh, they just be more comfortable with each other, like that. I said, no, that ain't the goal, and you know.
Speaker 2:And then I have these challenges of people intentionally coming to the church. Know it's multicultural, not only at the church I attend, but at the church too. From what I hear is that they come to the church and then want to segregate themselves within the church and they'll say like, well, why are you here? Well, I'm waiting for the other shoe to fall. You know you here. Uh, well, I'm waiting for the other shoe to fall. Uh, you know, it's like what. I'm waiting for the other shoe to fall. Man, if you got that mentality, why are you even here?
Speaker 2:And then, uh, if people have the courage to venture beyond that is, I find, in the music bitch beyond that, somebody will grab him by the hand and say you don't want to do that, are you trying to be like them? Like them who that kind of challenge we have in terms of even though occupying the same space? And then you got some high school students up in Greenville and Cleveland says you know, we have this colorism and you know, and so they dumbed down themselves so they won't be classified in a certain category of colorism. You know, you're trying to be white, if you're a good citizen or you're trying to be this, if you curl your hair or if you wear this style. You know, and it's challenging, but the intentionality I say the intentionality you got to be very intense to do the right thing over the intentionality to do the wrong thing.
Speaker 3:That's fair. I love it yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Amen, amen. Jerome man, you mentioned, you know, a couple of things on the latter end of your answer that's exciting. You, in the midst of all of the division, in the midst of all the chaos, the tensions that exist in our country right now, what are some things that are exciting? You about Jackson, about Mississippi, about even the country itself? Feel free to springboard into either of those areas, but what are some of the things that are exciting? You about what God is doing in the work of reconciliation?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, um, well, I'll start with. I'll start with our church, I'll start with my church and kind of move to the city. Um, man, one of the things that excite me about our church, uh and and the future we we have is we still got people coming and it's in this. And it's so weird to me, you know that someone will hear about what we're doing and say, okay, cool, I'm gonna be about that, like, all right, you realize that there's a different church you can go to right, you're like, yeah, but I like, I like what, I like what you guys got going on down here. So I want to be a part of that. I'm like, okay, cool, I love that.
Speaker 3:And my mentality has been, like you know, as I speak before before the church, I'm always quick to say, man, we accept everybody. We don't care what part of this reconciliation journey or spectrum you're on, whether you're here to, you don't know what's going on, you just like to preach it. We want you here. Now, if you're here and you're virtue-sick than them, well, we want you here. You're here and you're all about the work we got going on. We want you here Because everybody along this discipleship journey and we all going to see Christ. We all going to be a part of that wonderful picture we see in Revelation and low going, except us all, and no matter what, we're part of this spectrum we're on in terms of reconciliation, so I'm excited about the fact that people are still coming. People are staying put, staying committed, and they're willing to work through whatever issues or tension that might exist, and people are willing to intensify the joy and the love they have for our church that are currently present.
Speaker 3:One of the things I would say that gives me some hope about our neighborhood, though, is that I feel like our neighborhood is where, as many would say, when you're at the bottom, the only way you can go is up. So it feels like, in many ways, when you walk through our neighborhood, it feels like man. A lot of it is like man at the bottom. You know we have a lot of people who are just in really dire situations, so there has to be the only way we all can go is up, and so, you know, one of the one of the things I'm really excited about for our neighborhood to take us on the upward trajectory is our church is in the process or I would say in a process of purchasing Chastain, which is a a pretty big staple for our community, which is one of the local middle schools down two blocks down from us. That was pretty prominent in our neighborhood, was recently vacant I made vacant a couple of years back, was put in the market and now we're in the process of trying to purchase Chastain and if the Lord will that we purchase that and we're able to secure that deal.
Speaker 3:Man, that's going to be a community center for our neighborhood. I mean all the things I talked about tutoring and college prep and feeding and schooling and developing for workforce and for discipleship, all that work and deed ministry. I like to say we're sharing and showing Jesus that two-pronged ministry where we're doing both works but also word. Then we can do that in this community center and our neighborhood gets to benefit from that. In this community center and our neighborhood gets to benefit from that, they'll have a pretty clean space that's state-of-the-art, with options for them to do, that's extracurricular to go to. That's right in their neighborhood. That's going to be game-changing. That's going to be hope for people that are hopeless, that walk out the doors and see trash in the ground. Well, now, through our effort, we can clean it up but they can go down the street and go to the rec center and play ball and feel safe and be connected.
Speaker 3:Man, I'm excited for that and I hear a lot of good things about our mayor.
Speaker 3:You know I'm excited to see what's going to come from this new administration and I'm also hopeful.
Speaker 3:I'm hoping that, with some of the recent challenges we've had in our government, that this new turnover will be pretty good for the future of our city because, man Lord knows, we need it.
Speaker 3:So I hear about a lot of new buildings being developed. I hear about a number of few other areas, like Belle Haven, a district, being developed in other parts of the city, fondren, I guess, is continuing to be more and more developed parts of the city, foundry, and it gets to continue to be um, more and more developed. So I would say those, those things that that that add, I would say um beauty to Jackson, um that adds jobs to Jackson, that adds infrastructure and and and excitement and joy to Jackson. Um, those things excitement, because I'm I'm always looking for places and opportunities to give people that's in our, in our parish hope um for for the future, um, because when you walk out your door and you feel hopeless, you turn to evil and dark things, and so we can give them hope through, through excitement, through the gospel and through fellowship, through the church man, that those are the kind of things that make me excited no, no, brother.
Speaker 1:Those are the things that make us excited, man. Those are the things that make us excited and, and and I'm, I'm excited, man, and when God is doing like you said in in, in our capital city. Of course, I'm a Vicksburg guy, vicksburg native, but I spent a lot of time in the capital city and I'm excited to to see all that the Lord is doing at um, at Redeemer Church. Uh, maybe, maybe, me and Nettie and Austin will find a nice little, nice little home that we can, we can, purchase so that you can um, come by and throw a cookout on the block for us. Uh, but, but it's, but it's, brother, it's an incredible privilege to spend some time with you, man, and to glean some lessons. I know our listeners are probably writing plenty of notes and taking some thoughts away from this podcast. Man, how can people keep up with you, jerome?
Speaker 3:Yeah, brother, you kind of broke it, but what did you say?
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, how can people keep up with you, jerome?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, man, hey, hey, look, you can follow me on instagram jerome douglas jr. Jerome underscore douglas jr. Uh. But, man, come to the church, man, we and we're here, north side drive, 640 east north side drive. Uh, come check us out. If you're in the area, if you know anybody who need a church home, we let a love on them um, here. So instagram, that's a big place, but also coming through the church.
Speaker 2:Jerome, I just have one last thing. Yeah, my family are going to take a road trip on the East Coast and we're going to end up in DC. So, man, tell me where to go and where not to go.
Speaker 3:Well, there's nowhere not to go. You need to go everywhere in DC, but hey, make sure you stop by. Go to Ben's Chili Bowl. It's a little different how it used to be, but go to Ben's Chili Bowl, get your half smoked with chili, cheese and beans and, yeah, man, enjoy it, yeah.
Speaker 2:We plan to hang out at the Ford Theater, the Bible Museum and the African-American Museum and Martin Luther King's statue. Those are the places we're going to try to hit.
Speaker 3:Hey, man, if you get a chance, go check out Tabiti's area. In Southeast they got a community center called the Ark, essentially what we're trying to do with Chastain. If in the Lowell purchase it, they've done with the arc in the in southeast dc um, and so if you get a chance to check out tabidi and what he's doing over there with that group, man, it'll be a sight to see, um, so I will employ you to do that too. All right now, thanks brother, it's been incredible.
Speaker 1:Thank you so very much for your time. Uh, those that are listening, please feel free to subscribe, like and share this podcast. Um, we love what we do. We love the guests that we get a chance to speak with. We want you uh to have the opportunity to uh have the joy of hearing uh from, uh, from our guests. Um, the and joy that we get a chance to experience. So please like, share, subscribe. Living Reconciled. You can search on any podcast app Living Reconciled, mission, mississippi. On behalf of my good friend Nettie Winters, austin Hoyle and our guest, jerome Douglas. This is Brian Crawford signing off saying God bless, god bless, god bless, peace. Thanks for joining Living Reconciled. If you would like more information on how you can be a part of the ongoing work of helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured, please visit us online at missionmississippiorg or call us at 601-353-6477. Thanks again for listening.
