Living Reconciled
Living Reconciled, hosted by Mission Mississippi, is a podcast dedicated to exploring reconciliation and the Gospel that enables us to live it out. Mission Mississippi has been leading the way in racial reconciliation in Mississippi for 31 years. Our model is to bring people together to build relationships across racial lines so they can work together to better their communities. Our mission is to encourage and demonstrate grace in the Body of Christ across racial lines so that communities throughout Mississippi can see practical evidence of the gospel message.
Living Reconciled
EP. 81: Defining Moments Special Feature
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What does authentic racial reconciliation look like in the body of Christ? Dr. Brian Crawford’s journey from cybersecurity expert to president of Mission Mississippi offers powerful answers.
After 21 years in federal service, a deep encounter with Jesus’ prayer in John 17 ignited Crawford’s passion for unity in the church. Growing up navigating both Black and white cultural spaces, he later founded City Light Church—intentionally planting it where “cultural collisions” could become “connections.” Today, his ministry brings together people from diverse racial, cultural, and economic backgrounds to worship and serve as one.
In this episode, Crawford unpacks Mission Mississippi’s approach to reconciliation, teaching believers the relational “fundamentals” needed to bridge divides before tackling tough conversations about race or politics. He also shares how recognizing his own “weighted advantages” fuels his drive to create opportunities for others.
📣 Join us for the Living Reconciled Celebration on September 25 at Mississippi College’s Anderson Hall as we continue the work of building bridges and living out the unity Christ calls us to.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Mississippi College, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple Church, Mississippi State University, Real Christian Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters.
Hey, thank you for joining me today. I want to share a quote with you by Mahatma Gandhi. He said it has always been a mystery to me how men can feel themselves honored by the humiliation of their fellow being. My goodness Boy, that says a whole lot. In other words, how would it make you feel great to minimize other people? Listen, you're gonna enjoy my program today. I am on assignment and so my guest host is Dr Nettie Winters and my guest his guest is Dr Brian Crawford, who is current president of Mission Mississippi. They have an incredible work that they're doing and they're going to share the work that they're doing in terms of racial reconciliation and reconciliation in the body of Christ. Stay tuned, we'll see you next week, but stay tuned for my guest host, dr Nady Winters, and his guest, our guest, brian Crawford. Stay tuned.
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Speaker 1:Welcome to Defining Moments with Larry Nix, where our focus is touching the lives of people with a spirit of hope for life.
Speaker 3:I'm Nettie Winters. I'm your guest host for Defining Moments. I'm excited to be with you. I'm your guest host for Defining Moments. I'm excited to be with you. I'm really excited about our guest today, but you can join Larry and his guests every Wednesday on this newly launched multimedia digital network, thenightmississippitv, and every Tuesday and Thursday from 11 to 12 on 104.3 FM, a live stream on Facebook, youtube or iTunes at WPB1043. That's a mouthful. So we want you to join us every week, every Wednesday for the podcast and every Tuesday and Thursday for Defining Moments with Larry Nix. I'm Nettie Winters again. Larry and I have been friends for a long time. I'm excited that he gives me the privilege of setting and filling in for him while he's out, and so we're excited that we have with us, for our guest today is Mr Brian Crawford. He is the president of Mission Mississippi. Welcome, mr Crawford, to Defining Moments.
Speaker 4:Delighted to be here on Defining Moments. Defining Moments normally with Larry Nix. Today is Defining Moments with Nettie Winters.
Speaker 3:All right, I'm excited to be with you and I believe the last time I guest-hosted for Larry, you was our guest, and so I'm excited to have you on the program today. Why don't we get started? Why don't you introduce yourself and how you got to Mission Mississippi?
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, brian Crawford, have the privilege of, as Nettie, as you mentioned, have the privilege of leading Mission Mississippi, standing on the shoulders of giants. I tell people all the time if I come in the room a little taller, it's because I got big shoulders that I'm standing on.
Speaker 4:And so don't rear have big shoulders that you can stand on Not just office weird, not just office weird but of course, yourself, my predecessor and others like Lee Paris and Jarvis Ward and many men and women that made Mission Mississippi possible. So I started officially in January 23, took the role of president April 1st of 2023. Before that, I spent 21 years in federal service working with the US Army Corps of Engineers in an engineering capacityocational slash. Co-vocational pastor. Minister licensure.
Speaker 3:I want you to connect the dots, All of that stuff you talked about with the cool veneer and now the head of Mission Mississippi, and as a pastor you know connect those dots.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah so. So the Lord called me in the ministry. A lot of people have those revelatory moments, those 12 o'clock at night wake up and then they're watching TV and somebody on TV pointing their finger at the camera and saying you supposed to be a preacher. I didn't have one of those moments, I didn't have a revelatory moment like that. I just I was called into faith by the Lord as a rising senior in high school and my father was a preacher and I ignored, ignored, ignored the gospel and his messages for a long time older and can begin to really start asking questions about life and what, and what my life pertained to, and what, what eternity was and where I, where I lined up in the in the grand scheme of eternity. Um, I began to have questions about Christ and what it meant to follow him, and so, um, I surrendered my life.
Speaker 3:So you was a high school senior.
Speaker 4:Surrendered my life, uh, as a high school, going into my senior year, and began to walk with Jesus and obviously he radically changed everything about me. I was, in many ways, a prototypical preacher kid trying to run away from any calling whatsoever that aligned with Christianity or preaching.
Speaker 3:Were you conscious of it? I hear people say that. Were you conscious of the fact that you was running away?
Speaker 4:Were you conscious of the fact that you were running away? No, I just didn't want to. In many ways I didn't want to have anything to do with the Christian life in a serious way. I mean, obviously I had reverence for God, but I was trying my best to just avoid all of that and do my own thing for as long as I possibly could. So I didn't know I was running away from a calling or anything like that. I just knew I wanted to do my own thing and the Lord just captured my heart.
Speaker 3:Would that be like somebody trying to push you into a major or a job or career that you didn't want any part of, and you're just going to avoid that? Yeah.
Speaker 4:I think there is some of that. I think, as a preacher's kid, you're always around the church. Of course, you see both the good and the not so good.
Speaker 3:I rarely have an opportunity to press on stuff like this. I'm going to push you around this Press press.
Speaker 3:You know I'm thinking is that hanging around the church there are, I know growing up the older people would project or prophesy what do you want to call it? Oh, you're going to be a this, you're going to be a that. It's kind of like, well, you're a preacher's kid, you didn't expect to be a preacher. You're a preacher's kid, you're expected to do this, and you know, and you get caught doing something you weren't supposed to be doing. It's like, really, aren't you a preacher's kid? Like, that's how some special anointing that exempt you from the human race Absolutely.
Speaker 4:One hundred percent, spot on, I think, those pressures. I think also, like I said, being in the church you get a chance to see the good and the bad. You get a chance to see your family's joys serving Christ, but you also get a chance to see your family's tears in serving Christ, and so all of that, I think, plays a role in terms of preacher's kids trying to run away from whatever it is that God is calling them. And not every preacher's kid is called into the ministry, as you know. But but the way I ended up there, Some of them have run.
Speaker 4:But the way I ended up there was after I, after I surrendered my life to the Lord and he began to really just move deeply in my heart, I grew a very deep thirst for his word and his people and I really pursued trying to learn as much as I possibly could about the word of God. And I would be in college, sit down small groups and meeting in the student union and cracking open the scriptures with friends. And just the more and more I did that, the more and more my friends said hey, man, let's do more of that. Man, you have a real knack for just unpacking this Bible and just making it so plain and so simple. And so that led to campus ministry opportunities, which led to youth ministry opportunities, which led to preaching on Sundays and preaching in special occasions and events.
Speaker 3:You get the opportunity to speak to college campus ministries even now even teach at the university university. So those young folks that's in high school now or college and find themselves in the position you were in and having these inclinations that they might need to do something different from what they're doing, what kind of challenge would you issue them or what kind of confidence you would share with them about moving forward with that urge and an urging that they feel?
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's a great question, Eddie. I'll give you some counsel that was given to me years and years ago, going all the way back probably 2004, 2003. I was at a concert and there was a very famous Christian artist who was there performing. One of the friends that I was with said hey, man, I really want to get some tips from the guy. And so he went up to the guy and he said man, I'm an aspiring artist looking to get where you are. Oh yeah, what kind of advice would you have for me?
Speaker 4:And the gentleman said well, what I'll tell you is that I would urge you to go back and look at the walk of Moses, because when Moses, if you look at the end of the story, then you would think that Moses was sitting around in Egypt saying you know what, when I grow up, what I'm going to do is I'm going to lead the people of Israel out of Egypt and I'm going to put my staff down on the banks of the Red Sea and see God part of them and then lead them over to the promised land. He said Moses didn't have any of that on his mind. In fact, when Moses was in his will, in his moment, he didn't have any of that on his mind, but it was one small step of obedience after the other. Moses was trying to get to Leo man, but it was one small step of obedience after the other that led Moses on the journey back to Egypt.
Speaker 3:One small step at a time.
Speaker 4:One small step of obedience at a time, and oftentimes what we do is we allow the big visions of where is God taking me and what am I going to do with my life and how is my life going to have meaning and significance. We allow those big steps to cloud the opportunity to take the first step. And so what? I would urge you know a college student that's really just trying to make sense of what's next in life. I would urge him to just simply process what is the next step that God is urging me to take and how can I take it faithfully, in the sense of okay, what's the next step? Now? How do I prepare myself for that next step? What do I need to study? What do I need to read? How do I need to train? What people do I need to surround myself with? What counselors, mentors, coaches, disciple makers do I need to surround myself with in order to take that next step?
Speaker 4:And what you find is that, if you just keep being obedient to take the next steps that God is giving you, god has a way of orchestrating things and putting us in places that we never, ever imagined that we would be. I never imagined that in 2025, I would be leading Mission Mississippi. That wasn't on the radar right In 2015, in 2010, 2005,. That was not on the radar, but it was on God's radar and so my On the foundation of the world, before the foundation of the world. He had planned these good works for me, and so it was about just simply taking the steps, the next steps, and just walking in obedience, preparing for that moment that God placed me in, and then allow him to orchestrate and order the rest of those steps.
Speaker 3:You know, sometimes I feel like if I was just because this is just more than for young folk, this is for everyone. That's the key, that we understand that the next steps for me have been sometime in the past. The next step was just like somebody invite me somewhere or I just want to go to something or just be there. I've shown up at meetings and people come to me while I'm in the meeting and say this is what God is saying for me to tell you, and things like that. So sometimes it's just showing up, showing up being faithful. As Dolphins would say, just stay at the table. Yes, just stay in the conversation.
Speaker 3:Keep the conversation going and you know, in my mind the next step may happen and you look back and say I've already taken the step that I needed to take. And sometimes I think we overanalyze it, we overinterpret it. We're looking for these power, as you say, the miraculous, these powerful moments when, in fact, if I just show up at the Bible study, there it is, and be a part of the Bible study. There it is.
Speaker 3:And somebody may give a word in the Bible study talking to someone else, yep, and all of a sudden it hits you between the eyes of what you do next, and so I think sometimes we look at the great events and the miraculous and you know, sometime I feel like this is that people have been married for a long time and people have come up to me what's the secret to a long, loving, lasting marriage? Yes.
Speaker 3:And the people you're inquiring with will say well, we never had an argument out of 40 years and I'm thinking that goes my hope Right, we know Right. And so sometimes you get these. We don't talk about stuff, but people don't explain that to you, yeah, and so they say the secret is to do this or do that, but in actuality it's just trusting and being faithful to do. I had someone tell me let's just do what you know to do until you find out what you do next. Yeah, you say that and people go what? Yeah, just do what you know to do. Yeah, I'm looking for God. You know God, speak to me about this or what my purpose and whatever. So sometimes we just need to just do what we know to do.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we like to interpret the Christian life through adrenaline rushes, you know. And so we see these massive events, massive concerts, massive conferences and gatherings and we say, oh, okay, well, this is what the Christian life is, but really the Christian life is everything that happens after that. It's not the adrenaline rush moments that define the Christian life, it's just those steady heartbeat moments. I've heard it once said it's the steady heartbeat moments that define the Christian life. So oftentimes you'll have a young man, young woman, you know, trying to figure out what they want to do with their lives for Jesus and they're like, hey, so you know, I think I've been to this conference and I think I'm supposed to be a preacher, like the preacher I saw on stage, or I think I'm supposed to be a missionary, you know, to Africa and all of these different things, and one of the typically the counsel that I give is that's great, but the church has been asking for some folks to serve in the nursery and your name has it.
Speaker 4:Well, I just opened the doors on Sunday morning Put the key in the lock, unlock it, yeah, the church has been begging for people to open up or to do a little greeting in the mornings, or to serve in the nursery, or to serve the kids, the elementary kids. Why don't you just start right there, rather than paralyzing yourself waiting for all these big moments, why don't you start in the steady heartbeat of service?
Speaker 3:Yeah, a key moment for me and I'm sure it was for you. Steady heartbeat of service yeah, A key moment for me and I'm sure it was for you. But what really defines it from scripture for me is that in Mark, Jesus says come, follow me, yes, and I will make you disciples. Yes, I will make you fishers of men yes.
Speaker 3:And so for me it's like if I just follow him, he'll tell me what to do. Yes, but I want to know everything's going to happen. God just wanted to be the God in the middle. Yes, so my challenge to folks is that if God tells you everything that you desire and you know, you probably won't take the next step.
Speaker 3:Yes, I'm good God, because God describes everything that's going to happen between here and the end. So I just wanted to flesh that out just a little bit. As you were giving your story and testimony, I just want to flesh that out about especially like for elementary and high school students and college students. We spend a lot of time I did and I noticed sometimes, when students be asking me questions, they're spending a lot of time trying to get to somewhere that probably would take them, trying to get to somewhere that probably would take them years to get there, when they could just take one step at a time.
Speaker 3:Thank you for unfolding that a little bit more. Go ahead with your story.
Speaker 4:Amen, yeah. So, like I said, I tried my best to run away from that call. The Lord eventually just put me in places and spaces where I found myself immersed in that call, and so I began to spend more time in pool pits and preaching and articulating the word of God. While that was happening, I was also at the Corps of Engineers and serving and working there, like I said, started as a systems engineer and moved from that to strategic planning and from that to serving as the chief of IT and then, from there, chief of cybersecurity. All these different leadership roles and opportunities.
Speaker 3:While you were doing that, what was in your mind, what was your thought process doing that time? You were looking to be chief of something or what was going on from a career perspective.
Speaker 4:What's interesting about that, nettie, is that there was a time very early on where I was, there was a time very early on where I was expecting to climb the ladder and be exactly in those seats.
Speaker 4:And then, as I began to move and transition more and more into ministry and what the Lord was calling me in that space, I began to desire and yearn for that less.
Speaker 4:And yet what was happening over there I didn't realize it, but God was using that as opportunities and preparation for the next season that he was leading me into. While I was at the Corp of Engineers, the chief of cybersecurity, when that job was made available and open and people began to apply for it, I didn't because I said to myself I'm good where I am, god has blessed me tremendously and I need to be free and available to serve the church and serve in ministry the way he's called me to serve. And it wasn't until I was approached by several people that said well, we noticed your name is not in the hat and we feel like your name needs to be in the hat and we would like for you to pray for it, because we know you're a praying man. So we would like for you to go back home and talk to your wife, and y'all pray about this, because we feel like you need to be in the running.
Speaker 3:That was amazing. Every time somebody told me, I told them I'm good where I am, and they said will you pray about it At the end of that prayer time, sure enough, god was calling me. It's like. I don't want to pray, because I know what the answer is going to be.
Speaker 4:And so the last job that I left, it was a result of people saying why don't you pray to see if maybe the Lord has other things in mind? And so, and he did, and I think it was part of the preparation for the role that I'm in now, because the role that I'm in now I can definitely see the experiences that I took away from Erdick or the Corbidgineers. I could definitely see those experiences playing out in what I'm doing now for Mission Mississippi and so, yeah, that's a little bit of my background, a little bit of my story, but again, when I look at the thread, when I look at the string that ties it all together, I see God's hand all over it. I, I did not plan, I did not plan these steps in advance. And I had plans, you know, and I have. You know, I was quote, I guess disciplined as much as you can be as a 21, 22 year old in terms of trying to lay out methodically what you want to do and what steps you got to take.
Speaker 4:But even with all of that planning, god had other plans in mind and I still ended up finding myself on a road that I never dreamed I would be on. But a lot of that just had to do with just ordinary obedience, just taking one step at a time. I tell people all the time, nettie, that the Lord leads us not with streetlights, he leads us with spotlights, with flashlights. When we read that the word is a light to my path, a lamp into my feet, we think that it's a big old streetlight that just clearly lays the path out for you. We envision it like the lights that we see on Interstate 20 or Interstate 55 when we're driving through the city. And the reality is, like you said earlier, that if the Lord gave us that much, we would just mess it up. And so the Lord leads us with flashlights.
Speaker 3:God fixed it for the Lord because he don't know what he's doing.
Speaker 4:Let me fix this, Lord. So the Lord leads us with flashlights, giving us just a little bit of his One day at a time. His perfect picture man, a One day at a time, his perfect picture man. A little bit of that picture, a little bit of that wheel, for us just to walk in that obedience daily.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's great. So what about your family? How do they feel about all this I got?
Speaker 4:a beautiful bride who is a PhD student and as wise as she is beautiful, and we've been married 22 years. In November It'll be 22 years. So incredible, woman of God, loves Jesus, loves her family. So much of what I am as a Way to make no deposits, man, oh man. Hey, listen, I'm trying, I'm trying. But so much of what I am as a thinker and as a leader I attribute and credit to my wife because she's a thinker and whereas my thinking used to be very logical and technical, it has over the years transitioned significantly towards more heart and emotion. And a lot of that transition I can attribute to my wife because she again is an incredible, incredible, deep thinker as it relates to matters of the heart and she's taught me how to look deeply into the heart. And so I got a beautiful wife again, a 22 years Candy Crawford.
Speaker 3:But then that meet the requirements what Jesus says, where you become one.
Speaker 4:Yes, 100%, 100% and the best marriages. Man, you learn, you grant grace in the weaknesses but you glean in the strengths and you grow together in those strengths that each one of you brings to the table. So I can certainly thank God because I've seen some of that in our lives. I got two boys, one BJ he's my 20 year old going into his junior year at Mississippi College and we're excited to see his growth and what God is doing in his life. Prayerfully he'll be. He's looking to go into law school, but right now he's a history pre-law major. So he's he's at work in that regard.
Speaker 4:I got a 15 year old I say 15 year old, it probably. He'll probably be 15 at the time of this recording, possibly because it's late August his birthday so at the time that this recording is released he could be 15. But yeah, I got a 14-year-old going on 15. His name is Elijah and he's an incredible young man as well, going into his junior season of studies in high school. He's actually, I think, technically a sophomore but got a bunch of junior classes because he's a pretty sharp kid. So we're proud of them and they're doing great.
Speaker 4:Trying to make sure I don't overwhelm them with preacher, kid stuff, so trying to let them be. Oh, you got plenty of help there, so trying to let them be. Oh, you got plenty of help there, so trying to let them be. You know, just normal kids that are growing in the grace and mercy of Christ and learning what it means to follow Jesus on their own accord and not on the coattails of their parents. So they're figuring things out for themselves and we're just trying to lead and guide them as the Lord would grant grace. But yeah, I got a good family man. I praise God for them.
Speaker 5:Hey, my name is Kyle Reno, senior pastor at Crossgates Baptist Church. Here's a defining moment from this last Sunday. The witnesses are telling us this morning hear me now, it's worth it. I'm going to end today and I believe in a way that's going to help you hear the story of faith from those that have went before us. But before we even think about running our race today, I wonder if we'd be willing to do what the second part of verse one says. Therefore, since we're surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and sin that clings so closely.
Speaker 5:Many of us hear me now many of us are trying to run our race in life, carrying too much weight. That's not a physical indictment okay, hold on, all right. But many of us are trying to run our faith race. But we're still carrying weight from previous seasons. To become a follower of Jesus Christ hear me now and to truly run your race well, means that we're gonna have to have moments of unpacking.
Speaker 5:I love fresh seasons because fresh seasons gives us moments to evaluate and helps us to come to decisions about what we're gonna carry into this next season of life. Some of us need moments that we unpack the pain. Some of us need moments that we have breakthroughs in our own personal struggle with sin. I got good news for us this morning Eyes for a second. Jesus was crucified so that we could run free. Jesus was crucified so that we could run forgiven. Hey, thank you for taking some time to listen to that defining moment from this last week. If you'd like to listen to the sermon in its entirety, you can go to crossgatesorg and we would love to have you visit with us any week on any of our Sunday experiences or our midweek opportunities. I'd encourage you this week to take some time and really think about what moments right now are defining your destination. God has more in store for you. Hope to see you soon.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So as we think about this thing of being a pastor and president of Mission Mississippi, talk about the transition, of what led your heart to this thing. You know, Mission Mississippi is all about reconciliation in the body of Christ and living out the reconciliation that Jesus built. You know, we've been challenging Christians for a long time now to live out the reconciliation. So how did you get from chief of staff for cyberspace?
Speaker 4:Yeah, cybersecurity chief.
Speaker 3:Cybersecurity chief to pastor, to now president, and all of that. You know city life. How did all of that segue? And all of that, you know city life. How did that, all of that segue?
Speaker 4:in all of that, yeah, yeah, well, my, you know my heart. This is defining moments.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 4:Yes, and there are there are several of them as it relates to this journey, but my heart has always been towards reconciliation. I can see again talking about that thread and God's fingerprint over your life. I can see that fingerprint. Now, as I look back, I can see it very early on. I've always been in diverse spaces. God placed me in diverse spaces early.
Speaker 3:You know, I hear people say that I've been. You know, I've been this always. When you say I've been in diverse spaces. Always unfold it just a little bit.
Speaker 4:Yeah, absolutely, starting back all the way back to elementary, my parents had me at a Catholic school, catholic elementary school, and we weren't Catholic. You know, diversity may not be a diversity in terms of class and color.
Speaker 3:We were working class family, obviously African-American you can see my dark skin and figure that out but I was in a it's always interesting to me when African-American folks we were just a working class folks I'm like is there another class for African-Americans? When I was coming up, you know you were trying to get to the working class, but go ahead, I'm sorry.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but yeah and except. I was immersed in a school where there was a lot of middle to upper class, even wealthy students of middle to upper class, even wealthy students.
Speaker 3:There was. So you went some of the folks from hard times to Rich and famous?
Speaker 4:Yeah, absolutely Absolutely, and even, and even in you know color is predominantly white school with a smattering of African-American, black and brown folks in the mix and Asian folks in the mix, but predominantly white. But I would leave that school every day and I would go back to the Heights and Hamilton Heights. Go back to the Heights, um and Hamilton Heights.
Speaker 3:And it was, you know, my, my circle there was predominantly African-American.
Speaker 4:And so in Cleveland, no, no uh.
Speaker 3:Vicksburg, mississippi, vicksburg you said the Heights man. What Heights?
Speaker 4:Hamilton Heights.
Speaker 3:Hamilton Heights. There's a Hamilton Heights in Cleveland, Ohio. No, go ahead.
Speaker 4:And so and so, yeah, there was, there was a predominantly black uh circle, predominantly black circle of influence in my neighborhood.
Speaker 3:It was predominantly black there, in Cleveland too.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and of course even Hamilton Heights had its own diversity because of the way the flooding was. So you had like an area of the neighborhood that was flood zoned out and that had a particular class and color, and then you had an area of the neighborhood that wasn't flood zoned out so had a particular class and color, and then you had an area of the neighborhood that wasn't flood zoned out so it had a particular class neighborhood. So I have some diversity even in that experience. So I was going to school in diverse context, I was coming back home in diverse context. Obviously that kind of diversity went with me.
Speaker 3:Even in an all black situation, you had diversity.
Speaker 4:Absolutely, absolutely, and it wasn't even all black in Hamilton Heights. Of course, it became increasingly black, but early on it was very much a mixed environment as it relates to class, as it relates to color and, like I said, that in and of itself I learned some things, even though my circle was predominantly black the neighborhood was not at that time and so there was a mixture there. There was a diversity in my school, there was a diversity in my home. There was a diversity in the experiences as I went to college.
Speaker 3:And so, all alone, god had his fingerprint in preparing me. You're just messing folks up with this diversity in the home, diversity in the streets, diversity in the community and diverse in school, and all this, typically, when people find themselves in the home, they typically find that people just assume that everybody in the home is the same. Yeah, race class, whatever the diversity you're referring to is.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, absolutely, man, and that goes a little bit to my story too. I'll definitely get to that in just a second. But you know all the way up through. You know ministry. So I'm in ministry now, or rather I'm filling the tug into ministry and I'm at this.
Speaker 4:I'm at college, mississippi State University, and I'm getting invited to the predominantly white campus ministries and the predominantly black campus ministries, white campus ministries and the predominantly black campus ministries.
Speaker 4:And there's one evening where we're hosting this festival and I'm watching how it's the predominantly white campus ministries night to host and I'm watching how the predominantly black students are engaging and they're just kind of very uncomfortable, right. And then vice versa, when you swap them and put them in different audiences, and those moments resonated with me Like why is it that it feels like we're so uncomfortable together when we're one, when we're the body of Christ? It was those kinds of moments that kind of lingered with me and stayed with me as I fast forward into ministry as an adult, right. And there was a season where I was preaching through the gospel of John, because by now I'm preaching every other Sunday at this church that I'm serving at in Tulu, louisiana, and we're preaching through the gospel of John. And we happen to work our way through the gospel of John, chapter 17, where Jesus prays his high priestly prayer. He prays for his relationship with his father.
Speaker 3:That's Jesus' real prayer. I call it.
Speaker 4:Amen, amen. So he prays for his relationship with his father, he prays for the relationship of the disciples back to him and his father, and then he prays for us John 17, verses 20 through 23. Father, I pray that they be one as you and I are one. I pray that they walk in that oneness in order that the world may know that you love them as you love me, and that you sent me and that resonated with me in ways that it had never resonated with me before. In the sense of God, this is a defense and all God, this is an apologetic for your gospel. Oneness is that's what Jesus is saying that if we walk in oneness, the world will see and know that you love us and that you sent your son. And I begin to pray and pursue Lord. If that's what Jesus prayed for, then I want to see it right, not just in a theoretical sense. Yes, I know we are the body of Christ, we are one in Christ, but I want us to actually show it.
Speaker 3:One in Christ, but we got separate places in the room.
Speaker 4:I want us to display it. I want us to display it, lord, and I want that display to start in me, and so that set off, or set me on a journey, so to speak where I began.
Speaker 3:So John 17 was really a defining moment it was a defining moment. It was an anchor in my life. That was your preaching.
Speaker 4:Yes, yes, wow. And it was in the midst of that study where I just saw John 17 with new eyes and new passion and new purpose, and it set me on a trajectory where, eventually, we ended up launching, in 2016, from our house, a church called City Light Church, and it was a church that we set out from the beginning to be intentionally multi-ethnic. We sold our house that was City Light Church. We were living in the county of Vicksburg, mississippi. We sold our house with the intentional desire to move into the heart of the city, because in the heart of the city is where I like to call all of the cultural collision happens.
Speaker 4:In the heart of the city, the classes collide In the heart of the city. Color collides In the heart of the city, culture collides where, if you're on one side of Clay Street, you're getting one experience, you're on the other side of Clay Street, you're getting another experience. You go too far down Washington Street, you're getting one experience, and then you come back the other way, on Washington Street, you're getting another experience. It was there where all the collision was happening, and so we said hey, me and my wife prayed about it, thought deeply about it, felt like the Lord was leading us and said let's go back.
Speaker 3:Collision versus connection.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. Let's go back, let's go back into the heart of the city, where all of these cultures and classes are colliding, and let's see if the Lord would do a gospel work to bring people across these different cultures and classes and colors, to bring them together, different cultures and classes and colors to bring them together.
Speaker 3:So City Light was specifically purposely planted in the heart of the city to change collisions into connection with the community.
Speaker 4:There you go, there you go, and so, yeah, we launched in 2016 from our house. Eventually, we started hosting Sunday morning services in 2017. We moved into our space in 2021. God has been faithful and blessing. We're probably about 60% white, 40% black and brown church in terms of the demographics, as it relates to color, but even within that, there's all sorts of different dynamics as it relates to class, as it relates to experiences. Our white brothers and sisters are not monolithic. They're not all the same. Neither are our and sisters are not monolithic. They're not all the same. Neither are our black and brown brothers and sisters. They're not monolithic. They're not all the same.
Speaker 3:They bring different experiences Is that any culture, color class of folks that's monolithic, they're not.
Speaker 4:That's one of the terrible mistakes that we make is we look at one and we think that we figured out everybody. You know, we figured out everybody. We do that with so many subjects. Nanny, If I met one Republican, I think I met them all. If I met one Democrat, I think I met them all. If I met one Black man, I think I met them all.
Speaker 3:None of us are monolithic. We are wonderfully made according to the Psalms. So you just couldn't be a broker and agent for your culture and your color.
Speaker 4:Absolutely no, no, no. I can certainly know, you see that, with Esther standing in the gap for her people in the book of Esther. So you certainly can represent a group of people, but you yourself can't define them.
Speaker 3:It's too complex. When you say represent, unfold it just a little bit. In the book of Esther, it talks about representing. She was standing in the gap for the Jews and she was a person for such a time as this.
Speaker 4:Absolutely, absolutely. And I think you know, even you know going going to, you know going into the 50s and 60s. You see those moments where where Dr King stood in that kind of capacity in terms of representing a group of people and their plights and their suffering, and standing in the gap and serving as a voice and a mouthpiece, a prophetic voice for the moment, to speak for people I think the Lord appoints times and seasons for people to do that Serve as a bridge, absolutely, one hundred percent. I mean you know WE talented 10th, those that God will raise up amongst a group of people with natural born talent and gifting, who hold the responsibility to ensure that those people, from their grouping, their background, their communities, their neighborhoods, they hold a responsibility to make sure that they can serve as leaders to help bring those people along as well.
Speaker 4:You know, one of the mistakes that we make as it relates to thinking about our place in life is that God will sometimes gift us and when he gifts us we'll say, well, I made a netting, so you just need to figure it out and make it on your own.
Speaker 4:Not recognizing that part of the reason God gifted you is so that you would help Nettie, who might not have the same gifting. And so I think God appoints, like he did with Esther, and puts her in places by his sovereign, sovereign grace, king, with his eloquence, you know, and charisma. Puts him in certain places by his sovereign grace. And then there are others throughout history who have been given similar responsibilities. He puts them in place in order that they would own the responsibility of helping those, helping those that that are behind them come along as well. And so I feel like, yeah, sure, that is something that is reasonable when you think about different groups and cultures and colors. But even with that said, I cannot serve as a true and full representation of everything that that culture and group happens to be, because it's too dynamic, it's too complex, it's a tapestry that has all sorts of intricacies and all sorts of beauty that's interwoven in it, and so each person brings their own picture and depiction of beauty.
Speaker 3:And that's the DNA of every human being.
Speaker 4:Absolutely that when.
Speaker 3:God designed us. He had all this stuff in man 100% as it relates to connecting with one another and so forth. You know, brian, we have, we've had and continue to have opportunities where we're in spaces and places where we can change attitudes and actions of other folks or educate folks as it relates to that.
Speaker 3:So often, you know, we hear about this person coming out of the ghetto, coming out of the county or whatever bad situation. They find themselves, even coming out of prison, and they become very popular or famous or whatever it is, and with that people will say you know well, you know what's the problem with other black folks or Hispanic or even white folks. What's the problem with them? Why don't they do the same? If that person can do it, why don't you know? Help us not make that mistake.
Speaker 3:In trying to put one person up, what they see is what they'll be and those kinds of things. I understand there's a logical reason for all of those things, but also we make some categorically mistakes of saying things that we shouldn't say as it relates to people that achieve as you did describe with us and so forth. So I unfold that just a little bit and talk about how that works in terms of ministry and how we can help bring the body of Christ along without putting people in awkward situations Not awkward situations, but in situations where that may not be their calling, that may not be what God has gifted them, that may not be what God wants them to be Absolutely.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I like to think about it, Nettie. I talk about you talk about. There's this big dialogue and discussion and debate and sometimes just flatter argument over issues of privilege. I like to talk about it, this idea of privilege, at some point. I call it weighted advantages. You know that there's a reality of weighted advantage that we all must understand that plays out in life and what I mean by that is that you know, I grew up with two parents in the house.
Speaker 4:That's a weighted, that's part of my, my scored advantage, so to speak. There are a lot of people that don't grow up with two parents in the house. My father early on was arrested and he ended up pleading out. It was in prison where he found the Lord Jesus Christ. That changed the trajectory of his life and in many ways possibly God was using that to alter the trajectory of his entire lineage. That came, that followed behind him. That in and of itself was part of my weighted advantages, because I could not, I could have not had that father that came back home, you know, in a totally different mindset, training me and teaching me in the things of God and you know there's some naysayers out there saying well, you know, I've seen kids that have two parent home and they're worse off than the single parent home 100%, 100%, so, so.
Speaker 4:So again, active engaged father, right, yeah, pointing me to the things of the Lord. So not just simply a present father in the house, but fully present in my life. That's, that's an advantage. Fully present in your life. Repeat that Fully present in my life. Okay, so that's an advantage. The fact that I had two parents that were fully present, that's an advantage.
Speaker 4:The fact that, man, I had a gift for math early on. I just knew how to put equations together and figure them out, so I didn't have to pay attention in class. I could fall asleep in class over and over and over again, until the teacher said Brian, listen, I was tired of waking you up and but I was going to keep on doing it. But then I got your score from your first test and you did pretty good. So I'm not going to wake you up anymore. You just do whatever you want to do on that, and so that wasn't something that everybody had the opportunity to do. Now, that doesn't mean that I was great in English, it doesn't mean that I was great in all these other classes, but I had that and I just stay wide awake in math and the teacher said you might well go to sleep.
Speaker 3:Come to school at times like really.
Speaker 4:But see, that was part of the weighted advantages. So here's my point, nettie, is that there was a collection of different graces that were afforded to me that made available some opportunities. It wasn't just simply me, right, it was a collection of. It was the people that invested in me. It was the pastor that spent. It was the pastor of the church who had a full investment in me and who believed in giving the students that was making good grades, believed in giving them money, and so he motivated us to actually go out and get good grades, and so it was that passion that was so invested and involved in my life. And so it's all these little pieces in the story.
Speaker 4:There's an artist by the name of Propaganda, a Christian artist I used to listen to years ago. He had this song, this album called Crimson Chord, and he talks about all the different fingerprints along the way the fingerprint of the Lord, the crimson cord, the cord that runs through your life. The coaches that invested in you when some coaches would have quit on you. The pastor that you had that you want to ignore but had a profound impact on your life. The dad or the mother or the uncle or the godfather all these different things. They play into your cumulative weighted advantage, right. And so it's more than just simply class, even though class plays a role in it. It's more than simply whether or not you're the predominant culture in the culture that you're in, even though that plays a role in it. But it's all these other little small imprints that take shape to make a person who they are.
Speaker 4:And so a lot of times we'll say, well, why can't you just do it like Nettie did? Well, nettie was an all-star track athlete and so he got scholarships that I would have never got right, and so he got scholarships that I would have never got. Or he was raised to understand this particular subject in a way that I never understood it. And so understanding here. Here's what I tell people all the time, nettie, about this. There has to be enough humility in us where we see God's fingerprint that that brought us to the place that we are. Because what humility does is humility recognizes. I didn't get here by myself. And if humility can recognize that I didn't get here by myself, then it increases my sense of responsibility to ensure that other people get here as well, when I fool myself into thinking that I'm in the place that I'm in solely based on my own doing, then it hardens my heart towards the people that aren't in the place that I'm in, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:Absolutely man, your charm and charisma didn't get you here.
Speaker 4:It's humility that drives us to say hey man, I got to help Nettie, get here, I got to help this person, get here, that person, get here, because I know that I am only here by the grace of God. That's part of the urgency or the urging
Speaker 3:or anointing or whatever the word is. We all got all these words for Christian suede ease and all that, but that is part of what was in you, to bring you to the point that City Light was going to be a change agent in the city.
Speaker 4:Yeah, absolutely, as it relates to all the above, or just race, race and everything, I mean, we have a value. We have a couple of values One that embodies the component around our pursuit of oneness in the body of Christ, and that's universal unity, which is we desire to be a place where people from all walks of life, shades and colors, class and culture can come and find home. We believe that. We believe that really.
Speaker 3:So what would make City Light stand above and out? Because every church in some sense has part of it in their motto, in their vision, in their mission. Some kind of way to have that in there. Sure, but it always rise out that people understand that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we say everybody has to come to City Light and sacrifice something, has to come to City Light and sacrifice something, and what we mean by that is that in a typical Sunday morning service, everybody's going to be a little uncomfortable by the time the service is over. Everybody will have experienced some discomfort because we're going to sing worship songs that do not connect.
Speaker 3:So that wouldn't be a sign in front of your church that said come and be comfortable.
Speaker 4:It's definitely not going to be that Because we want to set the temperature in the room so that everybody expects to be a little uncomfortable, everybody expects to get to a song and say, oh okay, I wouldn't play that one in my car, but all right, my brother, over here it looks like they're enjoying Jesus with this, so I'm going to enjoy Jesus with them. That's what we mean by universal unity in terms of everybody, should you know we talk about you know, basically, the journey, the human journey, is a journey back home. You know, the Garden of Eden was home, present, present and fully present with God, and the serpent disrupted that unity and we were cast out of the garden, and the whole story is us returning back home, and so we want people to find a sense of that when they come to City Light.
Speaker 3:That's great. You know. You talk about that universal, universal unity, yeah, but when it comes to restaurants, we have that right. People leave church. Man, I feel like Chinese today. Oh, no man, we need to get some soul food. You're within the family.
Speaker 3:You got to have a discussion on which one of the places you're going to go. Somebody's going to want pizza, somebody's going to want Italian, somebody's going to want this, that and the other, and we can embrace that, because if we would go many times, maybe we're just hungry, I don't know. Somebody said we're just going to go to the Chinese place and you're really not for Chinese. But man, if we're going to eat, let's go. Yes, why can't we have that on Sunday?
Speaker 4:morning, my goodness.
Speaker 3:Not only on Sunday morning. Why can't we go forward from Sunday morning and embrace that universal unity, my goodness, as it relates to food.
Speaker 4:Man I desire and yearn to see so much. Obviously, revelation 5, revelation 7, those are already not yet, or not yet passages in the already not yet kingdom of God. Those are passages that we glimpse out into the heavens, where he says I see tribes and tongues and nations all surrounding the throne, in their tribes, tongues, and know tribes and tongues and nations all surrounding the throne, you know, in their tribes, tongues and nations worshiping the Lamb of God. But I feel like, in many ways, the Lord desires that we would see that in our day, especially when we have all the tribes, tongues and nations on our back door, on our front doorstep, and so we should be pursuing that in ways that are intentional, that are grace-filled and that are sacrificial. And then, lastly, nettie, you know, even get back to the point that you made about you know our heart for bringing people up.
Speaker 4:You know we have a value that we call emptying empowerment, which is the idea that Christ emptied himself. That was the humility of Christ, according to Philippians 2, that Paul urges us to let this mind be in us. That was in Christ Jesus, the kind of humility that empties ourselves in order to see the people of God be empowered through his emptying, and so we encourage people to live a life of humility that follows the example of Christ, by emptying ourselves of power, in the sense of the knowledge that we have, the people that we know, the possessions and the privileges and the positions that we have in life, to see others rise and come alongside us. So, yeah, that's some of the things that we're trying to pursue. By God's grace, Got a long way to go. Got a lot of work to do. Of course, we'll never be there until he comes back, but it's our heart's cry, all right.
Speaker 3:Now we've gotten from the engineers to City Light, so let's get to Mission Mississippi.
Speaker 4:Let's do it.
Speaker 3:Let's go to the Mission Mississippi story of the defining moment from engineering to city life. And now to Mission Mississippi. How do those three kind of convene or converge.
Speaker 4:Yeah Well, mission Mississippi is a result of a desire to continue in that reconciliation passion that the Lord birthed in me from that John 17 passage and so, um, the Lord was really moving on my heart and my, my wife's heart that, hey, I think he's calling. I think he's calling me into this reconciliation work full time. And we didn't know what that looked like.
Speaker 3:but um, the Lord did From your previous story. We never know what that looks like, Right, but the Lord did If we did we would fix it.
Speaker 4:But the Lord did.
Speaker 4:And so that's how I ended up involved with a man by the name of Nettie Winters and got connected to a group of pastors in Vicksburg that was Mission Mississippi Vicksburg Collective, and I began to meet with them and grow with them.
Speaker 4:I began to meet with you and grow with you, and it was there eventually, down that road, that you shared your succession plan and the board was looking for a new person to succeed you and continue to, you know, to continue the traditions and stand on the shoulders. And so there it was, after much prayer and contemplation and counseling with good, trusted advisors, that me and my wife said maybe this is, maybe this is what the Lord is calling us to. And so we put our name in the hat and the board selected us, and so again didn't start out saying, hey, mission Mississippi is where we need to go, started out saying that ultimately, we just need to make a transition and we feel like the Lord is calling us more into this work, more into this space. But we don't know what that looks like, but, lord, we're making ourselves available to you. And then the Lord began to unfold what that looked like, and so that's how we ended up at Mission Mississippi in January 23rd of this past month.
Speaker 3:But anyway, we're here now Talk a little bit about the segue from 23 to 25 and what's going on at the current time for Michigan, mississippi, and how that history and stuff ties together.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know we are smart enough to realize that there's a lot of good history and good work that has preceded us. And we're smart enough and humble enough at this point to understand that you don't undo, that you don't erase, that, you build on it. And so we've been trying, by God's grace, to make two degree shifts and, just along the way, look at the current moment that we're in, the current culture, that we're in the current historical moment that we're in as a state and as a country, and figure out how can Mission Mississippi adjust to be a part of that moment and to provide maximum impact in that moment. So one of the things that we're focused on really deeply in this particular season and iteration of the organization and ministry is we're thinking a lot about coaching people well in relationships.
Speaker 4:We have a class, a curriculum, if you will, that we call Cultivating Healthy Relationships Across Dividing Lines. It is a curriculum that we use both at local universities Belle Haven, mississippi College. We use it with local businesses and churches. We also host what we call a Connection Friday monthly gathering. That happens every third Friday of the month and during that time, and also in our local movements, because we're spending time in Meridian working through this content. We're spending time in Greenville working through this content. We hope to also implement similar meetings in Greenwood and Tupelo and Vicksburg and in other places. But what we-.
Speaker 3:Even though you haven't implemented those curricula per se, the ongoing work is going on in other communities. Oh yeah, absolutely 100%, 100%.
Speaker 4:But in terms of talking about the coaching piece, here's what we've been really keyed in on is that a lot of people, when they think about reconciliation work, they think about reconciliation work in the same way that Daniel LaRusso and the Karate Kid thought about karate. And here's what I mean Daniel LaRusso, when he got beat up by all his high school bullies and Karate Kid, he met a man by the name of Mr Miyagi and he said Mr Miyagi, teach me karate. I've seen you do it and you're fantastic at it. Please teach me. Mr Miyagi said okay, I'll teach you.
Speaker 4:And then the next day, daniel shows up at Mr Miyagi's house. He says hey, I need you to paint some fences. Okay, well, I guess I'll paint your fence just to be nice, but I need you to teach me karate. Okay, yeah, we're going to get there. And so Daniel paints all of his fences. Well, the next time, the next week, he shows up and Mr Miyagi said I'm glad you showed up to learn some karate. I need you to sand all the floors on my decks around this property. Okay, I'll be nice and do this again, but I'm hoping we're going to learn karate. Next week he shows up I need you to paint my house and then the final week, after being here all this time, I need you to wax all my cars.
Speaker 4:Daniel's son, finally, is fed up because he's waxed cars, paint fences, paint houses, sand floors. Man, when are you going to show me karate? And then that's when Mr Miyagi says show me wax on wax off, and then he tries to punch him, but the wax on wax off is a defense. Show me paint the fence he tries to punch him, but the paint, the fence is a defense. Show me sand the floor, and he tries to kick him, and it's a defense. And what Daniel learns is that all along he was learning karate. It was just fundamentals. And here's what happens in race conversations, here's what happens in political conversations, denominational conversations, is that we enter into all of those conversations with no fundamentals in how to do relationship and so they go wrong. And we think that they go wrong because of the politics. We think that they go wrong because of the race. We think they go wrong because of the ethnicity, the culture. They go wrong because we don't know how to do relationship well.
Speaker 3:And all this time I thought you just go wrong, because I'm right and you're wrong.
Speaker 4:Exactly, that's precisely the point, and so we spend a lot of time right now in that, cultivating healthy relationships across dividing lines really diving deeper, so I should be one of your meetings.
Speaker 3:I got to paint your fence.
Speaker 4:Yep Diving deeper into the nuts and bolts of relationships, with the hope that we will actually continue to grow and how to navigate the hard discussions as we grow in understanding how to do relationship well.
Speaker 3:All right, take about three minutes, yeah, and tell us how we can connect with Mission Mississippi. I know we spent a lot of time on your story and all of that, which is, I guess, sending the flow and paying the fence and all of that. So help us understand how people out there that's really interested in really getting into the fundamentals of having these difficult conversations and really want to be a part of this and have a heart for this, help us understand how to connect.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think one of the first entry points is through our prayer breakfast. Every Tuesday we have a prayer breakfast. Whether you are part of a local movement across the state, or whether you are not, you can be engaged with our prayer breakfast, even if it's just via Zoom A lot of these prayer breakfasts.
Speaker 3:So if I'm in Gulfport and I want to you can connect.
Speaker 4:Connect Tuesday morning, 6.45 AM. You can log in via Zoom. You can go to missionmississippiorg Sign up to be a part of our newsletter by connecting on through our newsletter, by going to the connect or the contact page. That will give you access to our newsletter, which goes out weekly, and it has announcements about what's going on in Jackson, what's going on across the state. It has weekly words where we share encouragements, blog posts, podcasts which, by the way-.
Speaker 3:All this is at missionmississippiorg.
Speaker 4:Missionmississippiorg. You can go to our podcast search on Live and Reconcile. Go to Google search on Live and Reconcile Mission Mississippi.
Speaker 3:I'm old school man. I want a telephone number where I can talk to somebody 601-353-6477.
Speaker 4:That can give you access to us Grace at missionmississippiorg.
Speaker 3:Grace at missionmississippiorg. So whatever school you come from new, old or indifferent we got a way for you to contact Good and, most importantly, what I want to direct you to.
Speaker 4:September the 25th, mississippi College, anderson Hall, we are hosting our annual Living Reconciled celebration. It has two aims One for you to see the work of Mission Mississippi, two for you to see one another, and that's a whole other conversation and a whole other story that we'll have to get to at a later time. But I believe seeing one another is the great need of our day, the great need of our time, and we're going to spend a lot of time on September the 25th, at 6 pm at Mississippi College, unfolding why that's so important.
Speaker 3:Unfolding. Why that's so important, but also connect us.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 3:Tickets and all of that.
Speaker 4:Mississippiorg. As soon as you go to the website, first thing that comes up is an opportunity for you to purchase tickets to our upcoming celebration on the 25th 601-353-6477.
Speaker 3:Challenging the audience as you go, as you leave, challenge us, yeah, you got one minute.
Speaker 4:There's opportunities all around us for us to build bridges. Yeah, there's you got one minute. There's opportunities all around us for us to build bridges. There's opportunities all around us for us to not play into the narrative that we are divided, hopelessly divided, and it starts with just simply grabbing a neighbor that doesn't look like you vote, like you think, like you. Grabbing a cup of coffee. Building relationship building, fellowship, connecting, because that's what Jesus would have you to do. That's why Jesus came and died to make us one, one new man. I would encourage every single one of us, wherever we are, to embark on that journey of living out that reconciliation that our Savior paid for and died for.
Speaker 3:Thank you, brian Crawford, for being with us today in Defining Moments with Larry Nix. It's been a great opportunity for us to share this time with you. We know we talked about defining moments where we encourage, inspire and give life and hope to people's lives that we can cross these difficult challenges and everyone has a defining moment. So I would invite our audience to be with us every Wednesday for Larry Nixon Defining Moments, the podcast. We can do that at Multimedia Digital Network ignitemstv I'll say it again, ignitemstv and also join us every Tuesday and Thursday for Defining Moments with Larry Nicks on 104.3 FM, live stream on Facebook, youtube or iTunes WPBP1043.
Speaker 3:I'm an old school guy but I know this is new school stuff. So join us for Defining Moments. If you'll Google Larry Nix Defining Moments, you'll have all the information there as it relates to the podcast every Wednesday from 11 to 12, and on the radio program every Tuesday and Thursday from 11 to 12 pm. God bless, it's been great getting to know you even more. I thought I knew everything, but you enlightened me on a lot of new things. Again, this is a defining moment for Larry Diggs. I guess I'm in, brian Crawford from Michigan City. God bless and God keep. Thank you.
