Living Reconciled
Living Reconciled, hosted by Mission Mississippi, is a podcast dedicated to exploring reconciliation and the Gospel that enables us to live it out. Mission Mississippi has been leading the way in racial reconciliation in Mississippi for 31 years. Our model is to bring people together to build relationships across racial lines so they can work together to better their communities. Our mission is to encourage and demonstrate grace in the Body of Christ across racial lines so that communities throughout Mississippi can see practical evidence of the gospel message.
Living Reconciled
EP. 79: Living Across Lines with Pastor Wayne Hall
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What does real reconciliation look like across racial and economic lines? Pastor Wayne Hall shares his compelling journey from growing up as “the only white kid” in one of Meridian’s poorest neighborhoods to leading a diverse church at Jackson First. Wayne reflects on the early influence of an inclusive church, the painful shift of racially divided friendships in high school, and the calling that shaped his ministry. With bold honesty, he challenges listeners to examine whether their faith truly reflects Christ’s call to reconciliation. Rooted in empathy, Scripture, and lived experience, this episode offers a powerful vision of the Church as a place where everyone belongs.
📣 Join us for our annual Living Reconciled Celebration on September 25th at Mississippi College's Anderson Hall as we continue the conversation on what it means to see one another as Christ sees us.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Mississippi College, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple Church, Mississippi State University, Real Christian Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters.
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated to giving our communities practical evidence of the gospel message by helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured for us by living with grace across racial lines. Hey, thanks so much for joining us on this episode of Living Reconciled, episode 79. I am your host, Brian Crawford, and I am with some special friends Nettie Winters, Austin Hoyle. Gentlemen, how are you today?
Speaker 2:Man, I am great, but the last time I was called special man, some guys in white coats with a scrap in their hand was standing there.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no, no. You are a very dear friend, man, special friend, incredible friend. All the great adjectives for friends that I could think of you, you fit the bill and you, you as well. Austin, every great adjective that I could think of as it relates to friend, I think of you.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm glad I'm in there somewhere. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. And we have another really, really good friend with us and before we introduce you to him, we want to give a quick shout out to our sponsors and say thanks to Nissan, st Dominic's Hospital, atmos Energy Regions Foundation, mississippi College, anderson United Methodist, grace Temple, mississippi State, Real Christian Foundation, brown Missionary Baptist Christian Life Church, ms Doris Powell, robert Ward and Winters. Ms Doris Powell, robert Ward and Winters, thank you so much for everything that you do. It's because of you, because of you, we're able to do what we do. And today what we're doing is we're having a conversation with a friend of ours, pastor Wayne Hall. He is the pastor of Jackson First. He is a devoted husband, father, and Wayne is an incredible friend. Wayne is Nettie Winters' pastor, which requires much prayer and fasting, I'm sure, just in and of itself. So maybe we'll get into figuring out what it means to be Nettie Winters' pastor. But, wayne, we couldn't be more honored and privileged to have you join us today brother.
Speaker 4:It's truly an honor on my side of the fence as well, buddy. I'm very privileged and thank you for being a friend. That sounds like a sitcom song, thank you.
Speaker 1:Shout out to the Gota girls. Man Shout out to the Gota girls yeah, absolutely. Hey, wayne, why don't you start off by telling us a little bit about you, man? Tell us a little bit about your family. Tell us a little bit about your own story as it relates to how you came to faith in Christ and how you ended up in the vocation that you're currently in as a pastor of Jackson. First Awesome.
Speaker 4:Well. Again, thank you guys, so much for what you do and this podcast. You know, thinking about my life and everything that I've been through and God's brought me to you know I'm a husband of the greatest wife that God created for me, holly. We've been married this, going into our 20th year of marriage. I'm originally from Meridian, mississippi, about 87 miles east of here. I married a Pearl girl. She's from Pearl Mississippi.
Speaker 4:I grew up Meridian and been in the Jackson Metro area now pastoring for 17 years, going into our 18th year. But I grew up in Meridian, mississippi. I grew up in what they would say that people like to label the bad part of town, the part that you don't go across the tracks and visit very often. I grew up right off of Fifth Street and what they call a red line district. Um, I uh was the only, uh, only white kid in my neighborhood, uh, only white family. But uh, enjoyed living in Meridian. I lived there. Like I say, I've been here in the jacks metro for going on 18 years. But, um, you know, grew up in a your typical, you know, hard, hard working family home. Dad was a I worked for bunny bread and which is now sunbeam bread, and my mom was a florist, uh, dad was an alcoholic by trade and he, you know. It was just one of those families that you grew up and you survived, you learned to survive, you learned the streets, you learned how to make it and you know, as my dad would call us, many times in our lives as hustlers, we grew up to hustle.
Speaker 4:I was probably 16, 15 years old, grew up in and out of church. My family was part of Church of God. For a while we were Assembly of God by association, but we just kind of went to what was the latest and greatest growing up. But I remember as a kid, you know, there was a Methodist church right around the corner from where we lived, at 512 41st Avenue. I could take you to the place. Now the church, I believe, is condemned now, but it was a beautiful Methodist church Austin. It just had windows, just like in your location. I mean, it was just like looking at the same church again. And I remember that church really loved on us, loved on us as kids and gave us a place and a platform. And I remember a funny story Every Sunday when we would have communion it was when they broke bread and actually passed the cup and we thought it was great that our communion got to continue because they gave us what was left and we got to go home and eat a loaf of bread and drink a half gallon of what we thought was wine but was grape juice and we just really felt loved. That really impressed on me that those kids never asked me how much money I made, what my parents did. They opened their door to us, me and my friends. We'll never forget that. You can talk to all of them to this day. What are you thankful for? We were thankful for that Methodist church that gave us a place and so fast forward, I was probably 15, 16 years old. I was going to a Baptist church with friends in school. You go to church where the girls are, not where God is, and that's just kind of what we thought was the right thing to do.
Speaker 4:And, man, I just fell in love with music. There was something about music, of course. Growing up, my dad listened to a lot of soul music, a lot of blues. I felt a kindred spirit with that music. When I would hear the piano play and the organ play and the drums, I was drawn to it. God just began to deal with my heart. I didn't really realize how broken I was as a child, a son of an alcoholic, tough life. But as I got older and I got into music, I became a musician myself. And I got into music, I became a musician myself. You know, I love the drums and found a love for worship music and church music. And that's how I really began my quote unquote introductory relationship with the Lord.
Speaker 4:And I remember one night I was probably I was 18. I had, you know, I had the privilege of loving high school so much I went back to the 12th grade again just because I liked it and uh, and that was a joke there, but that's okay, I uh, I uh one night went to a revival service with a buddy of mine from school and that we we had a little band together, we traveled and played music whenever we could and whatever church would have us. And and I remember I was in the service and this evangelist was there and when he said there's a, there's a man here and you're 18, he said and you've tried to figure out who you are in Christ. And he said I think tonight's the night you need to understand who you are and who he is, and I was like, man, that's me, he's talking to me. But I was like how do you know all that? And I'm so green to the Holy Spirit and not understanding the conversation. And so I kind of slept on it and went to a church several weeks later, of course.
Speaker 4:The church that I was going to, uh, where friends were, and and I remember, that night I just I felt a drawing because I've got to give my life to Jesus. I got to be sold out to this. I can't, I can't just and um, have the cake and eat it too. You know, I've got to, I want to commit my life to Jesus. And I remember, in a stairwell, uh, the youth pastor. His name was Jerry Hooks, he was a fantastic drummer and he took me under his wing. I told him, I said, jerry, I can't leave here without committing my life to Jesus. I said, because I've run for too long to try to chase my own platform and I want to give Jesus my life. He said, man, let's do it right now.
Speaker 4:He led me to the Lord on the stairway, you know, uh, and then you know that same evangelist that was at that service many, many months later, uh, I, I was actually 19 at the time, getting ready to go to college. And um, he I went back and he said you know, there's a man here, you're 19. And I was like how does this dude know how old I am? And he was just calling it out for what it was. And he said you got to call God on your life and you know it. You need to surrender to the ministry, to the life that God's called you to, and follow him for the rest of your days. And I went up to him and I said his name was John. I remember John Shriver was his name. I said John, it was me, I'm him. He said I knew it was you and he said but I just needed God to talk to you and I surrendered my life to ministry that night and surrendered to the call and never looked back.
Speaker 4:You know ministry has been so good to my life and my family and you know it's never been easy, because when you choose to follow a path that again not that everybody does it's been difficult at times, wanted to quit at times, but I've learned that to be in love with Jesus and not be in love with a calling God called me. I didn't call myself and that's the pursuit that I continue to come after to this day. Here, being almost 45 years old, I'm just choosing every day to take up that cross and follow him. I've said so many times in my life even yesterday it was kind of woe is me after you and I talked on the phone I was like Lord, you could have called somebody else, man, you could have called somebody else, man. You know, you could have picked somebody else, and and and that was the thing, was it was like, yeah, he could have, but he, he chose to pick me. You know, and and and. I've just learned that God doesn't make mistakes. Even when we feel like he does, god knows what he's doing. And and and God took just a poor little white boy out of Meridian off the Red Line District, and he said I'm going to make something of him and I'm going to give him a life that he'll, if he'll, pursue me for the rest of it. You know I'm a guy that can be trusted, so been so grateful, man.
Speaker 4:You know I had to learn how to be a godly husband. I did had to learn that. I'm honored that I had the dad that I had. But it's just. You know, you learn things and you need to unlearn some things. And then I had to. You know, I remember when our first child was born we have three beautiful children. I remember standing in the room and I'm terrified, you know. I don't know how to be a dad and I told the Lord. I said, god, you're going to have to fix this or change it or something. I don't know what I'm doing. As clear as day in my spirit, the Lord said I want you to be everything to her that your father was not to you. I took that as the responsibility to say, okay, I'm going to serve you, jesus, in my kids' lives, in my wife's life, as my friends in Louisiana would say, the rest is lanyard. You know it's just extra, but it's been a joy.
Speaker 2:You know, wayne, when you were talking about standing in that room and admitting to the Lord that you didn't know what you were doing, that you needed him to do that, you know that's really the way he wants us to come to him in all circumstances, all conditions, and life would be so much clearer and brighter when we do that, as it was for you in terms of in that moment, even in the moment when it was so clear and concise to you that the Lord had called you, as the preacher said. So you know it's. I just want to encourage you in that. I just want to encourage you in that that's such a clear hand of the Lord moving on you and how we can do that without making it so complicated as we generally do.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I appreciate that. But it's been a fun journey. Live by the mantra enjoy I-N, space J-O-Y, enjoy the journey. There's joy somewhere in this thing and it's just choosing to find it. And so it's been fun and we're still pushing forward, man.
Speaker 4:And then I remember when my wife and I got married. We got married on April Fool's Day, of course, so we'd always remember our anniversary and we stayed in Meridian for about a year, year and a half. She looked at me one day in our large 486-square-foot apartment and she said I'm ready to go home. I said well, I don't want you to leave this earth. She said, no, I'm ready to go back to where I know is home. Of course we got a phone call as we were serving as as bivocational associate youth pastor worship leaders, if that is a title, uh, at a local church, at Trinity assembly, um, we had like six kids in our youth group and we were just serving because, that's, we had a place. And, uh, we got a phone call one day here in Jackson. It was Pastor Bobby Q and he was a youth pastor, associate pastor here at Jackson First and he was a dear friend and he happened to be my wife's youth pastor when she was growing up and he said hey, man, we'd love to talk to you about coming to Jackson. And I said well, man, my wife's home is in Pearl, so let's go home. He said well, man, my wife's home is in Pearl, so let's go home. He said no, no, he said let's talk.
Speaker 4:And we prayed and at first we were just like you know, we'll just see what God wants. You know, it's funny how we try to dictate what God needs to do when we want God to move in our life, but if he'll do it our way, we were just like all right, God, if you do this, this, this and this, we will consider it. And God's like who are you again? So we eventually we just knew it was right in praying and timing. And God brought us here to Jackson First and we, just we said we're going to stay faithful, we're going to serve the local church and to whatever degree.
Speaker 4:And here we are, going into our 18th year, we're still here, you know, serve the local church and to whatever degree. And uh, and here we are, uh, going into our 18th year, we're still here. You know, we never thought we'd still be here, but we're here and we're grateful. Um and uh, my wife got to go home, so, uh, we never looked back. So it's been a, it's been a joy to serve the local church, uh, which, in my opinion, it's just the hope of any community is a local church. You know, of course, through Jesus himself, but yeah, man, brother, that's incredible man, you said.
Speaker 1:You said a lot that I could, that I could grab on to, but there's one thing in particular that I would love to kind of unpack a little further, if you don't mind. You mentioned being the minority growing up, the only white kid in a predominantly black and brown neighborhood, and you and I have had conversations before in terms of you describing how that has shaped you, shaped your ministry, shaped your passion and your heart for the context that God has uniquely assigned to you in Jackson First, where you guys are, could you talk a little bit about that in terms of how God has used and leveraged your upbringing good, bad and indifferent and the experiences that you've had to instilling you a particular passion and a particular capacity and ability to minister to where you are and also to deepen your passion to see oneness in your community and see people reached across, uh, ethnic and cultural lines.
Speaker 4:Yeah, um, you know, growing up where I, where I grew up in Meridian, um, I mean just no, getting around it, we were, we grew up in a poor neighborhood, you know we were, we were the poor white family, um, and white family in the district we grew up in. I say it like it was the Hunger Games, but at some degree it was. But the area we grew up in was an old hosiery mill area where they had a sock and hosiery mill, where your typical shotgun house and hosiery mill, where your typical shotgun house, you know, just working family, were there. And Meridian was at the time. You know they had an old money side and they had just no money side and we were in the no money side. But I remember, you know I really, for the longest time, just kind of like I hate to say this because it's an absolute false statement For a long time I really didn't see the color. You know what I'm saying and I say that because it was just normal life for us. It was not like, oh, I don't see color, no, you see color, colors all around you, but in that degree it was like you know, I'm white, they're not, we're all in the same neighborhood we're going to live around each other, we better like each other and get to know each other, because that's what we got mind that grew up in that neighborhood. We all were like dreaming of the day we get out. Like man, I can't wait to get out of here Like we're just, you know, so doomed for the rest of our life in this neighborhood. But man, we loved it. Everybody played sports together. That was our thing. We played sports and we played music.
Speaker 4:And in Meridian we had feeder schools where everybody went. There was two elementary schools, there was two middle schools, there was two junior high schools and everybody fed into the same high school. So you really didn't see like you went to school, with who you look like and the neighborhood you were from. So we all went to. I went to Oakland Heights Elementary School, went to Carver Middle School, went to Kate Griffin Junior High School and then we all went to Meridian High School, carver Middle School, went to Kate Griffin Junior High School and then we all went to Meridian High School. And so we really never saw.
Speaker 4:I never saw the color aspect where we were quote unquote different until I got into high school, because that's when all the rich kids and all the poor kids came together. We would see each other on sports fields and different games. But so I began to notice you know, something's a little different here, that I didn't see growing up, something, and it was like there was a, like an automatic migration. All the white people went to the white people, the, the, the black and brown people went to the black and brown people and everybody else who was left just hung out. And I was part of the everybody who's left because we were just like man, what happened? And and I remember friends of mine who were, um, you know, growing up, best friends, you know, athletes together, playing ball together. You know there was a. There was just this like migration, like we, we migrated. And then we'd see each other in the ball fields, we'd see each other in the locker rooms, but during class, you know, you were automatically in class together, but during life you just, you just split off. And so I began to notice, you know, of course, by our demographics and financial situations, and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 4:Then I remember our quarterback, for example, lebaron Hedgeman. He's a pastor out of Meridian, an amazing man of God. I love this man. He has a powerful ministry. I remember I played center, an amazing man of God. I love this man, he has a powerful ministry.
Speaker 4:And I remember I played center and he was the quarterback, and I remember he and I were talking one day and I said, lebaron, why, why do we not hang out anymore? He said Wayne, this is just how it is, man. I said I remember growing up we were together all the time, you know, we spent time together, we played together, we run together, we run the roads, we rode the school bus, I mean. But we're in high school now and it's like, well, we get together now. And it's like, well, we get together, we do what we got to do.
Speaker 4:And then we go back to our circles and I just really felt there was something screwed up about that, and I hate to use that word, but it just really was like. But I didn't know how to address it. I just thought, well, if I don't go with the flow, if I don't, you know, stay in my lane, I'm going to catch heck for it. And but I remember never feeling comfortable with that, like my wife always she, she finds it hilarious that every time we go back to Meridian she said you know more black people than I've ever known in my life, wow. And I said, well, honey, I said there they were always friends and family. Like this is just our life, you know. Life, you know.
Speaker 4:And I remember thinking, if I feel this way as a white man, how do my black and brown friends feel every day of their life? And I only had to face it for like a season my 10th grade, 11th grade, 12th grade and 12th grade year. I had to face it for a season, but LeBaron had to face it his whole life and I think, finally, for me, what really opened my eyes to this is like it's wrong. But what's wrong with it? You know, we feel like you know, do we not belong in the same room? Do we not belong in the same social class? Or is was I any less because I grew up in a poor neighborhood? You know? No, I was. I'm human and and, and it's just steered my heart to understand where do people come from? Like you know, I've just found that people can't help the hand that they were dealt, but you can help how you play the game, you know, and I remember.
Speaker 4:For me, I decided, I said, you know, if I ever get a chance to be a blessing to my brother. I'm going to Financially, emotionally, spiritually, if I ever get a chance. I never want to make people feel any less because I knew what it felt like to be the poor white kid that was standing in the middle of a segregated group of whites and black and brown kids that said, you know, pick a side. When I didn't want to pick a side, I'm like this is our side, you know, and it and it would. Oh, you're so frustrated because I'm like, can y'all see how wrong this is? And I'm the one that's wrong because I want to see it made right. I'm the one with a skewed view because it's like, hey, you're not part of that group anymore. You've got to go over there where your folks are at. Well, who are my folks? And I remember still to this day.
Speaker 4:I drive through my hometown, meridian, and it's just as segregated today as it was the day I left. There's still the old money side, the no money side and the side you need to stay out of. So it drove me to the fact that I have this sign in my office and I want to read it to you. It says this always pray to have eyes that see the best in people, a heart that forgives the worst, a mind that forgets the bad, and a soul that never loses faith and good. And I remember I said God, if I could ever live that way and help somebody understand that they have a place at a table yeah, none of us belong at, because none of us are righteous, not one.
Speaker 4:But if I can help somebody stay at a table, like I'll say this like Nettie Winters has helped me stay at a table that I just felt like I couldn't stay at a table, I'll say this like Nettie Winters has helped me stay at a table that I just felt like I couldn't stay at, but he said no, you can stay at this table and listen and learn.
Speaker 4:And I think that's what should drive us, because you've heard me say this a lot of times, brian there's a reality to on earth, as it will be in heaven, and a lot of people are going to be shocked when they see that that's true, that there's not a lot of table numbers in heaven. I believe that there's going to be one massively large table, the wedding feast of our Lord and Savior, who we're there for. To answer your question, it's just driven me to understand that if I felt it in a season, I have friends that have felt it for a lifetime. And how do I live in such a way that helps change that narrative around, to say, no, you're welcome at this table, and so I know I went a long way around to answer your question.
Speaker 1:No, no, I appreciate the journey, brother. I appreciate you taking us on the journey.
Speaker 4:That's, you know, that's just been the driving force behind my heart, even here at Jackson First. And we've got a long way to go, I'll say it, we've got a long way to go. A long way to go, I'll say it, you got a long way to go. But it's helping our family of faith and those that are not involved in the local church to understand that there's a place, you know, and making room for those who don't look like us and talk like us, even, you know, spend like us, to make a place to say no, you're welcome, because you know, if Jesus gave me what I was worth, he could have turned me away a long time ago. But he said, no, you're welcome and I can do something with that kid.
Speaker 3:Yeah, brother, that's man. That's really deep. I really love the way you approach this and the way you're telling this story, because what you just said it's not just theory. This is like real life live. This is discipleship, this is reconciliation as it's described on the ground level asking if I can just help somebody stay at the table. I absolutely love that sentiment.
Speaker 3:There's a whole theology, I think, in just that one little line that you're expressing, because staying at the table is really where the real work happens, getting into calling, being in love with our Savior, not just in the moments when it's easy or when everybody happens to agree with one another or when the room feels comfortable, because you're obviously showing places in your life where the room has not been comfortable, when something in you says you know I don't belong here, or I've heard this too many times, or I don't think I can do this again. And you're right. There are a lot of people who've only ever felt that dislocation, that discomfort, and then there are others who've just been asked to swallow that feeling for an absolute lifetime. They didn't get to opt out of any of that. So for those of us who get the privilege of walking in and out of discomfort. There's a responsibility, I think, to stay, to listen, to learn to shoulder some of what we've been carrying probably for decades. That's not just social wisdom. That cuts to the very, very root of what the gospel means as well. I love how you bring all of this way back to the kingdom focus, because when you've said there's not a lot of table numbers in heaven, I imagine a giant table where it was a big circle but people were able to sit on both sides so they could have good conversations just within a really large diet table.
Speaker 3:I think that'll preach. I think that's good to be said. I think you just preached it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let me ask you this, because I'm actually getting a real good question as we summarize this Someone who stayed at the table when it got hard, someone who's helped others stay. What do you think it means? To be able to lead other people, other people, into the same sort of resilience that the Lord has been able to cultivate in you for your life?
Speaker 4:Well, you know, I think it was at our last Mississippi prayer breakfast that we had several weeks ago. I just believe it is as simple as when you reconcile a man's heart, you reconcile a man's nature. You know, when God truly changes a man's heart, he can't help but change your perspective. And this may sound very offensive and I don't mean it to be, but I have to question a lot of people that carry the label as Christians, like where is your relationship with Christ if you so act, the way that you act towards your brother, and has your heart truly been changed? Because the fruit that I'm seeing ain't adding up. And I only say that because I had to go through a heart change to understand and even the battle of like.
Speaker 4:Well, maybe I do need to stay at the white table and just stay in my lane. Well, last time I checked, when a car leaves their lane, it causes chaos on the other lanes because they're like they're going to hit us and it could cause a pileup, a wreck, the news and everything. But I've just had to learn that sometimes God may be working in us to get us out of our lanes so that we can mess up some things, and I know that's kind of contradictory to the gospel, but I mean, jesus wasn't as all pretty and sanctified as we. I mean he messed some stuff up for the world and I think to answer your question is like man has God changed your heart? You know, has there been a true heart change?
Speaker 4:And I understand it's a process. We're disciples. We've not arrived yet. I don't have the gospel. You know the global gospel document on my wall to say I've officially become a certified Christian. You know God's still working on me and I think, as he's working in me, we're an unfinished work. He's continuing to do that and I think, being open to the fact that we're fallen, that we're sinful, I tell our people all the time we can't expect a lost world to act out. They just won't.
Speaker 2:You know, wayne, as you were describing getting in and out of the lane, you know when you're in the wrong lane and everybody's in the wrong lane, at some point there's going to be a catastrophe that can't be overcome, and so I find that standing at the wrong table is in the wrong lane.
Speaker 2:If you stand at the white table or the black table, god wants you out of that lane, even though in the wrong lane, if you stand at the white table, the black table, god wants you out of that lane, even though in the short term it might cause a little chaos in terms of how you direct traffic at that moment. But you know our goal. I love the way you described it, what you've learned and the struggle you had. But you know, one of the things that I picked up from what you're telling us and you may unfold this a little bit more is that either intentionally oreous, as we call it, or we see it. Our goal is to not criticize, condemn or do otherwise, but to lead them in the direction God would have us lead them, and many times it challenges us to be in the right lane to do that, and sometimes it feels I know it. For me, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one in the lane and I have to be in the wrong lane because I'm the only one in it, right?
Speaker 1:I mean formation is, you know, it's sanctification is not absent of disruption, right? I mean formation and forging and shaping that requires things that are out of shape to be to be molded, and there's some pushing and prodding and and some bending in order to get them in the shape that they're supposed to be. And so you know, to your point, to your point, wayne, we oftentimes think that you know that that Christ to be in Christ means you know that we're, that we're absent of some disruption. But it's the exact opposite To be in Christ guarantees there's going to be some disruption because we're out of sorts, we're out of shape, we have to be molded, we have to be placed and formed into what he desires for us to be, not just individually but collectively. And so disruption is a part of that. It has to happen and discomfort has to happen.
Speaker 2:You know, you know, brian, as we talk about that, I'm thinking about that the one lane between Vicksburg and Jackson. You know a lot of people in Bovine and Elkwood saying where are these people coming from? You know they're leaving I-20 to take an alternate route to get to where they're going, because you know I-20 has been working on at some point someday and I hope it's soon that they'll finish that work and I-20 will be so much better for travel back back and forth. I think that's the way the kingdom of God is that we change our circumstances In Jerusalem. When the apostles was going through Jerusalem, the naysayers accused them of turning the city upside down, but what they actually were doing was turning it right side up.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. What challenges do you see that the church is faced with? Of course, we talked about disruption and that unwillingness to be uncomfortable and to face that discomfort. Are there some other overt challenges that you're seeing in our communities that that are posing, posing obstacles to to the work of reconciliation and unity?
Speaker 4:Yeah, just again you invited me on, so I get to tell you my opinion, that's right, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2:Man, you got the mic, man Use it then that's right.
Speaker 4:That's right, that's right. Man, you got the mic, man, use it. Well, I just think we deal and I'm seeing this a lot with the immigration stuff. We've begun to pick and choose who we think is welcome at the table, and I think that's a very dangerous position to be in. And I understand the proper lines and I understand all that, but I'm living in a position in my life where there's always another side to the story, you know, and for me and my house, like my family, we always try to put ourselves in the other person's position. You know, why do they feel this way? Why are they aggravated? Why are they trying to better their life and their family? And I think that's becoming a challenge, because I think the local church is figuring out that we missed it somehow, because I think the local church is figuring out that we missed it somehow, like we gave up a fight that was rightfully ours in the first place and we gave it to the government.
Speaker 4:When the scripture that I read says true religion is taking care of the orphans and the widows, you know we'll say well, they're not necessarily widows. Well, to me, when they've lost their earthly good, you know we'll say well, they're not necessarily widows. Well, to me, when they've lost their earthly good, you know, when they've lost their earthly value according to man's standard, they are widows because they've lost something of worth that people say, well, they don't belong here or you don't belong in this neighborhood. I was in a conversation just last night over a neighborhood that's being developed close to where I live and a friend of mine said well, I've seen a lot more African-American families than I've ever seen before. He said, and it's wonderful to see. But, man, I wonder why it took so long. And I said, I know why it took so long Because they never thought they were welcome in a white neighborhood. I said, you know, and the one thing about it is who are we to say who's welcome and who's not? What if they told us, hey, you're not welcome because you're white, you're not welcome because you're a Christian, you're not welcome because you're a Christian. You know, and I think we as a local church have to decide, you know, what fight are we going to stay in? And I think it's one that we must stay in to say, hey, we're fighting for equal rights here, you know, we're fighting for, you know, people that are welcome. And to me. I've had to even wonder.
Speaker 4:You know, dr King said you know the 11 o'clock hour is still the most segregated hour on Sunday. You know, and I don't mean to misquote that, but I think you know we've allowed it to come over into the church. You know we said well, you know, we're going to go to our churches and we're going to have service and all this stuff, blah, blah, blah. So anyway, I don't mean to get off the rap trail, but the main thing is to me, I feel our biggest challenge right now is, you know, continuing to help people understand their worth in Christ and point them towards that and help them develop that discipleship.
Speaker 4:You know sanctification, holiness, you know these things that we don't like to talk about in church much.
Speaker 4:You know to the point of like. You know, helping people understand God has a plan for your life and it's a good one. And you may have to go through valleys and I don't understand those. I don't understand all of his ways, why God does things a certain way. But I know this. You know I want to be part of the church that loves people and that points them to the Christ that died for them. We've got to stay the course, in that it's going to be difficult. It's going to be hard because there's a lot of believers that don't feel that way. You know the ones that, the so-called crazy ones, the ones that are the wild-haired ones, the ones that don't look like us, the ones that don't talk like us. They're just as welcome as we are. And anyway, I'm going on long rabbit trails, but I just think we've got to stay the course and stay in the fight of let's be the church and we're going to be the church to all men that we might win some, you know. So.
Speaker 1:Yeah, amen, amen, yeah, wayne, wayne, micah, so yeah, amen, amen, yeah, way, way, micah, micah come, stands out to me when the lord you know what is the lord expect of us, right, uh, what does the lord call us to do in terms of you know, uh, doing, doing justice, uh, and, and, and, and, mercy, and, uh, you know. But? But also also James 1 stands out to me where he talks about don't just be a hero of the word, but be a doer of the word. And you mentioned what is true religion is right in that same passage. There's three things that really God calls of us as it relates to what true religion is. One is a controlling of our tongue, and that's a called a self-control as it relates to our relationships and how we engage relationally. But then number two is how we engage with the least of these, or those that have been neglected. So it's not just simply widows and orphans, but it's those that have been neglected.
Speaker 1:I think is the higher truth that James is calling us to, and then the abstaining from the impurity of the world, and so it's like what James is saying is that action, what it means to do. The word is how we engage in relationships in terms of what we do, in terms of controlling ourselves to engage well with one another, what we do to look at those that have been neglected and making sure that we give the attention we turn our gaze to the people that everyone has turned their gaze away from, and then also how we are living as light in the midst of dark space. Right, and that's what it means to do the word. And so, to your point, doing the word is actually how we engage with these very people, that are you engaging them and how are you sharing the love of Jesus with them? And so that's very much, I think, at the forefront of the church's challenges in the 21st century, certainly in the West. For us in America in particular. What's bringing you hope, brother?
Speaker 4:Man, I'll say this, and I don't say this much and I should say it more man, on Sunday morning, when I look in a room that is so mixed of you know, we always like percentages and all this stuff Like, well, how much of this? No, we're just like man does it look like heaven? And when I look at our congregation, I'm seeing that more and more it looks like heaven. And it's so exciting because it's like that took 17 years to finally see a turn, a just slight turn, to finally see a turn, a just slight turn. And I'm so thankful for the ones that, like Pastor Nettie, and the ones who stayed at the table and stayed the course to say let's let this work, and my brother, dan Hall, and those men that have tried tirelessly over and over to have our congregation like heaven and the congregation of the church as a whole, not just Jackson First. But that gives me hope because I think people are realizing that we really do need Jesus. Man, and that's where it starts. You give a man Jesus and that's where it starts. You give a man Jesus and he'll change his life. You know, and that's what gives me hope.
Speaker 4:And here in this community, you know, I finally realized that. You know, if one gets it, that's all that matters. You know, yeah, it's nice to have a lot of people, a lot of congregants, a lot of a full, you know parking lot. I mean those things are great. I wouldn't I'd be lying to say they're not, they're wonderful. But at the end of the day it's like Lord if one gets it.
Speaker 4:And I, and I think the greatest hope I have is and I think you'll understand, all of us will understand this, because we're parents and grandparents, and I see it in my home, I see it in my kids. My kids are learning to see people how God sees them. My kids are understanding the power of prayer for all mankind, you know, in all of God's creation. And to me that's what gives me hope. I see hope in these Gen Alphas, that man, they just want Jesus. You know. I think that that's why so many had questions about, and they're questioning, all these moves of God and all these campuses and all this stuff. Well, they're questioning it because it doesn't look like what they think it should look like when there is an honest, unadulterated pursuit of the King, above all kings, from a generation that is so haunted by anxiety and plagued with unbelievable media, who's right and who's wrong, but I'm seeing a generation turn around to say give me Jesus, like that song that I told you about in the morning when I rise give me.
Speaker 4:Jesus, you know, and I think of, like that's hope. You know, we're so quick to say well, man, we're losing a generation. But what about the generation that's being saved? What about the ones that are staying at those tables and saying, hey, we're not going to leave here until we see God move? You know, tarrying a little bit longer. You know, I remember my dad. I shared this Sunday. He used to sing a song by Reverend Charles Johnson, a dear friend of ours I can't even walk without you holding my hand. And I think we're seeing that now. It's like people saying unless Jesus does it, we can't. And now it's like people saying, unless Jesus does it, we can't. And that's what's given me hope to stay and keep coming back. Because, man, it's people that are getting it. Dads are being dads again, they're being husbands again, Families are fighting for faith, and so, anyway, that's just what's giving me hope, man. It's such a giddy hope that it's like thank you, Lord, Not all hope is lost. You're still on your throne and worthy to be praised.
Speaker 1:Yeah brother, yeah brother, your hope was fueling my hope, and so we're grateful, grateful for you, man, grateful for you, brother. We are so thankful for your work at Jackson First, thankful for your commitment, your steadfastness to the greater Jackson area and to the communities that you serve. We are grateful that somebody can pastor Nettie Winters. Incredibly grateful, incredibly grateful for that. Amen. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1:For those of you who are listening, if you would like to hear more of this podcast, feel free to go out, subscribe to Living Reconciled. You can find it on any podcast app. Search Living Reconciled Mission, mississippi. It on any podcast app. Search Living Reconciled Mission, mississippi. Download it like, subscribe, share with friends and family. We would love for you to get the word out, even leave a review, a positive review. Let us know how Living Reconciled has been a blessing to you, as you've been listening to this podcast and we always have great guests like Wayne, pastor Wayne and others. We would love for you to tune in to what God is speaking through these incredible, incredible men and women that we have on this podcast.
Speaker 1:And then, lastly, we want to point to Pastor Wayne and Jackson first, as well as all of you who are listening to September the 25th, at Mississippi College, anderson Hall, we are hosting our annual Living Reconciled celebration, starting at 6 pm. Please go ahead and pencil it or pen in that date and more details will be forthcoming. But you can visit our Web site to get some preliminary details and more details about ticket sales and all of that will be forthcoming. We're looking forward to this event. It has two aims and two purposes. Number one is to allow people to see the work of Mission Mississippi, but number two is to allow people to see one another. We are living in a day and time where it is becoming more and more difficult for us to see one another spiritually, emotionally, even at times, physically. We're looking past one another and it's driving so much of our division. And so, on September the 25th, we are dedicating some time to see one another, and so we are incredibly excited about that evening. We want to invite you to be a part of it.
Speaker 1:September the 25th, anderson Hall, mississippi College, at 6 pm. It's been a great podcast, a great episode. Pastor Wayne, we are incredibly grateful for what God is doing in you and Jackson. First, and on behalf of my good friends, incredible friends, special friends, austin Hoyle, nettie, winters this is Brian Crawford signing off saying God bless, god bless, god bless. This is Brian Crawford signing off saying God bless, god bless, god bless. Thanks for joining Living Reconciled. If you would like more information on how you can be a part of the ongoing work of helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured, please visit us online at MissionMississippiorg or call us at 601-353-6477. Thanks again for listening, or call us at 601-353-6477. Thanks again for listening.
