Living Reconciled
Living Reconciled, hosted by Mission Mississippi, is a podcast dedicated to exploring reconciliation and the Gospel that enables us to live it out. Mission Mississippi has been leading the way in racial reconciliation in Mississippi for 31 years. Our model is to bring people together to build relationships across racial lines so they can work together to better their communities. Our mission is to encourage and demonstrate grace in the Body of Christ across racial lines so that communities throughout Mississippi can see practical evidence of the gospel message.
Living Reconciled
EP. 71: Forest Thigpen on Faith and Division in Politics
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How can Christians bridge deep political divides? In this episode of Living Reconciled, Forest Thigpen, Senior Advisor for Empower Mississippi, shares how faith-driven engagement can transform public discourse. Drawing from his experience in policy work, he highlights the power of personal connection over political battles, from uniting legislators across racial lines to advocating for real change in Mississippi. Join us for a thought-provoking conversation on how faith can guide meaningful action, foster reconciliation, and inspire a new generation of leaders.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Mississippi College, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple Church, Mississippi State University, Real Christian Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters.
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated to giving our communities practical evidence of the gospel message by helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured for us by living with grace across racial lines. Hey, thanks so much for joining us on this episode of Living Reconciled. I am your host, brian Crawford, with some good friends Nettie Winters, austin Hoyle, gentlemen, how are you doing today? Good, great, I'm just happy to be here. Excellent, austin, you're happy to be here. Nettie, are you happy to be here as well?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, man. We went from being incredible friends to good friends. I'm just thankful I'm still a friend.
Speaker 1:Hey, man, as long as you're still a friend, that's all that counts. Man, there you go, that's all that counts. You know, hey, there's a song, that's what friends counts, man. We want to give a quick shout out to our friends, folks like Mississippi College, atmos Energy, regents Foundation, good friends like Ann Winters, robert Ward. Thank you guys so much for all that you do to make this podcast special and to make this podcast possible. It's because of what you do that we're able to do what we do, and today what we're doing is we're having a great conversation amongst good friends, with Forrest Thigpen. Forrest Thigpen is a senior advisor for Empower Mississippi. He is a staunch advocate for work in the public square, but also a deeply devoted Christian, deeply devoted Christian, a deeply devoted father, husband, and so we're incredibly excited to learn a little bit more about Forrest and your story, forrest. How are you doing today?
Speaker 4:man Doing great. Glad to be here with you and your friends. Excellent, excellent.
Speaker 1:That's great, great, great. So we want to start off by just asking you, forrest man, tell us a little bit about Forrest Thigpen, tell us a little bit about your life, your story of faith, how you came to know Christ Jesus and how that faith has driven your work in the public square.
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, I grew up in Cleveland, Mississippi, in the Delta in the 1960s, which was a much different time. I became a Christian at a young age and experiences through life that drew me closer and helped me understand more about what it meant to be a Christian. But it's been a great ride and lots of lessons learned.
Speaker 1:Awesome, awesome, man, awesome. Tell us a little bit about your work in the public square and how that work, how your Christianity and your faith shapes that work how that work, how your Christianity and your faith shapes that work.
Speaker 4:Well, my father was in the state legislature back in the 60s but I was always interested in national issues more and so after I graduated from Delta State, I went to Washington and worked for Senator Cochran for 10 years and while I was up there, got married, had two boys and wanted to move back to Mississippi and had developed an interest in state issues as well.
Speaker 4:Never was really interested in the political side, more just the policy side of doing what is good and helpful and right, and at the time there was a group associated with Focus on the Family that was trying to start essentially a chapter in Mississippi. It was really an independent organization and so I came down and helped start that. It's called the Mississippi Family Council at the time. Later we changed the name to Mississippi Center for Public Policy, which is its current name, Public Policy, which is its current name, and I was there for 25 years and finally burned out and had developed an interest in some other things that I'll mention in a minute. Anyway, I ended up now at Empower Mississippi, still doing public policy work, but a little bit more narrowly focused, and I'm not in charge, which is good. I'm able to just focus on doing the research and the relationships and the things that I think God has equipped me to do.
Speaker 1:Nettie, austin, man, you guys jump in. Feel free to ask any questions or forms that you got.
Speaker 4:I've known Nettie a long time. When I worked for Senator Cochran he was in Washington too, and one time at a big event we had for the Mississippi Senate public policy, nettie was praying, and before he prayed he said Forrest. And I did time in Washington DC and I thought and I had to tell people. When it was my turn, we didn't meet at the DC jail.
Speaker 2:That's not how it was at that time. I love it.
Speaker 4:I love it, but that's been decades.
Speaker 2:You know, for me, being in Washington sometimes felt like I was at the DC jail.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3:Not much difference, right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, First, you know reflect back on your early days with the family life work that you did when you first came back from DC. Yeah well, there were a lot of pro-life activists that helped put that organization together, but there were other pro-life groups and so we looked to address other issues that affect the family, ultimately coming to the conclusion that all issues affect the family. Oh, wow, and that led to us changing our name and broadening our scope. But in the early days, one of the things that we did help get passed was the constitutional amendment that recognized marriage as a man and a woman, which, of course, has been rendered moot by the US Supreme Court, which, of course, has been rendered moot by the US Supreme Court. We were able to eliminate the family, the marriage penalty and the tax code.
Speaker 4:We advocated and still now at Empower have always advocated for more options for families, for educational options for families so they can find the right setting for their child and the right mix of teachers and maybe therapy or tutors or that type thing, and there are ways to do that that I've been involved in, but actually my favorite thing that I did in my whole time at the Center for Public Policy and Mississippi Family Council, the favorite policy issue was helping to get African hair braiders out from under the cosmetology board, because they were having to go to cosmetology school for I think it was 1,500 hours, so basically nine months full time, learning nothing about what they were in business to do and so we were able to free them up and now there are several thousand hair braiders in Mississippi that are able to do their craft without government interference. So that fits into my conservative political philosophy or policy philosophy of getting government out of the way. It didn't require any subsidies or any tax breaks or anything, and that's what I really love, but mostly to see all these folks that are flourishing now and these businesses. That's actually my favorite policy victory.
Speaker 4:But one event we had and this has been 30 years ago now that Nettie was part of, was an event called Leading People Out of Poverty what Churches and Individuals Can Do, because at that time there was a lot of talk about getting churches to be more involved with helping people who are in poverty in a more structured way, and there are a lot of churches that were saying that's great. I had no clue how to do it, and so that conference led to some other things, so anyway. So it's been a variety of things that I've really enjoyed being a part of and have been blessed that God's put me in a place to be able to have a part in that.
Speaker 1:You know Forrest, you know you spoke about your conservative leanings and certainly you know one of the most interesting things about Michigan, mississippi, is that we have this kind of broad that we bring people that lean, conservative, lean, liberal, left, right but all identify with the price. Jesus is Lord and that unity is not only important but vital. And I imagine you've seen you've been in the political sphere for so long that you've seen probably some of the ebbs and flows of trying to navigate, bringing all these different people to the table from different political ideologies and things of that nature, different people to the table from different political ideologies and things of that nature. So today, as you think about the political sphere, what do you find the most challenging task in bringing people conservative, liberal, christian people, people that hold Christ as Lord? What do you see as the most challenging thing when you're in those political spaces in terms of bringing people together?
Speaker 4:Really, it's bringing people together that becomes a challenge and a solution. Because, in the first place, I love having conversations with people who are genuinely liberal, that genuinely believe what they're saying, and genuine conservatives, for that matter. What I really don't enjoy is having conversations with political conservatives or political liberals, people who are just in it for the power or the politics or whatever it's about their value. Yeah, if they genuinely believe what they believe, then I always learn from that. Yeah, and I love it. But a few years ago I had a series of dinners where I invited just a few In some cases it was two, in one case it was five, I think but trying to get black and white legislators together. So I invited them to dinner and I said no policy discussions here, just tell your story. And it was amazing how similar some of the stories were to begin with. But even last week I had one of the people, one of the senators, who was at one of those dinners, who told me and he's told me this before, but he repeated it again that he said that dinner, the one he attended, was one of the most significant things he's had in his whole career and he's actually referred to it to that dinner on the Senate floor because they learned so much, not just about the other person but about where they come from.
Speaker 4:And you've heard me say this before that I kind of view people coming at different from different perspectives as if we're on a map and you say, where are you and how did you get here? Well, that's really not debatable. You know you are where you are, you know how you got there. And if we'll just listen to each other and have to learn about the other person instead of listening, and then we're able to do what somebody in a different one of those conversations, one of those dinners, told me, he said you know, so-and-so voted different from me on that, on a particular bill. And he said I was able to go to him and say you know, I understand why you voted that way, but tell me more, because I'm thinking this and I can see what you're let's let's figure out where our differences are. I love that. That's so. That was another one of my favorite. I guess I have a lot of favorite.
Speaker 1:I know that that's a really good favorite thing to have. We talk about it here at Mission Mississippi Shameless plug for our course Cultivating Healthy Relationships Across the Body Lines. But in one section of that course we talk about moving from apathy to empathy and we say that the journey of moving from apathy to empathy has to include storytelling, that stories matter. It's one of the axioms of empathy that stories matter. And if you allow people room and space to just get in a room and share stories, to just get in a room and share stories, to see one another right as people, as image bearers, and to share stories, there's an incredible power that's unleashed in that, that brings us closer together. That does not exist when we aren't allowed the space and time and opportunity in the room to do that, and so that's incredible.
Speaker 1:And one more notable thing and I'll turn it over to Austin because I see him leaning in but one more notable thing to me, man, is hearing you say that there is a difference between genuine left, genuine right and political left, political right.
Speaker 1:And that rings so true to me because oftentimes I love to kind of consume news from different sides. So I'll watch left-leaning news segments, I'll watch right-leaning news segments. I'll watch left-leaning news commentary and etc. But one of the things that's always notable to me is I appreciate when I'm watching commentary that I feel like the people genuinely believe what they're saying. What aggravates me is watching commentary where I don't get the impression that they believe it, that they're just kind of trying to coalesce or curate and gather power or gather influence or or just win an argument. Just win an argument, build, brand all these different things. And what I'm noticing for us and maybe you can speak to this a little later after Austin jumps in but what I'm noticing is it seems like that kind of politicking is increasing politic left for the purpose of gathering power versus actually being genuine about those positions and values yeah, that's right.
Speaker 4:And and winning an argument, especially on social media, when the response is immediate and not help me understand why you're saying that. But you're an idiot, right, which never wins anybody over. Sometimes I tell people that, um, in talking to, but you're an idiot which never wins anybody over. Sometimes I tell people that in talking to, if you're going to talk to your legislator about an issue, don't start off by yelling at them or telling them they're an idiot. First of all, just with the gospel itself, the commandment is to is as you go make disciples, not hit people over the head with the Bible, you go make disciples, not hit people over the head with the Bible.
Speaker 4:And it's the same with the political argument. How many of you have ever been convinced to change your mind by somebody who tells you you're an idiot? By the way, in those dinners I started off with people who I believed to be believers, so that we would know we at least had that in common. That's your overarching identity. Yeah, and it didn't stay that way the whole time, but that's where we started and it makes a difference because you can trust that they're genuinely coming at it from a biblical perspective, whether it's the same particular perspective on a particular issue, right, but when it comes to the fundamentals of Jesus being Lord, they were together.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, typically when someone calls me an idiot, I just rush to agree with them and give them three or four different reasons why they're right about their assessment, and they never know what to do with that. But then I go back and say, but I'm not an idiot for the reasons you say I am. But that sometimes works sometimes, doesn't? No, I was actually. I was doing some research on you.
Speaker 3:I've known about you and your work with Empower Mississippi, I think, for probably about 18 months, 24 months, something like that, and I'm God just I love to pick your brain about so much stuff.
Speaker 3:But I know a couple of years ago you were focusing a lot on, I think, criminal justice reform and I'm bringing this up because it's a conversation that we had with, I think, our last person, felicia Marshall, and I was looking at some of the ways because, for me, I'm in the local church, I'm a pastor in the local church, so I've had so many people come my way, walk through my threshold, who have been at odds with the law on this or that issue, and it's usually deeply personal issues that have led them to become at odds with the law, and one of the things I found on the website.
Speaker 3:I mean it was throughout Magnolia Tribune, even the Columbian Progress here in the newspaper here, but also EmpowerMississippiorg. It has this quote that's talking about conservative criminal justice has not led to more violent crime increases. But I'm really interested on how your faith has been able to shape your perspective on bringing justice and mercy, bringing true rehabilitation to people. You know, how have you been able to kind of guide the conversation here in Mississippi and how has your faith been able to educate you and to help you to kind of get people to focus a little bit more on just the important task of rehabilitating persons back to society so that they are just constructive members of society.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Well, for this I have to give credit to Phil Reed, who has, over the years, gathered a number of different discussion groups around different topics, and one of them natively was part of too, was around criminal justice. The New Jim Crow is the book that we were looking at. Yeah, Michelle Alexander, yeah, and even though I didn't agree with a lot of the premise that she had, that these laws were inherently and intentionally racist, the effects of them were mind-changing for me, life-changing to some degree, and because of the realities that were revealed in that book, which is.
Speaker 1:let me pause and just say this I'm so encouraged just by what you just said, because there are a lot of folks that won't agree with the inputs and they will thus reject all the outputs as well. And so we, even if we disagree with some of the theories and some of the origins and you know, we can take in the information and not cast the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak, because you still were able to look at it with a clear lens, to say but there's plenty of merit here. Even if I don't agree with her on all of her premises and all of her, all of her thesis or hypothesis, I can still agree that there are some effects, yeah, and really related to all the things we've talked about.
Speaker 4:People tend to go in an all or nothing rut. I mean, if you think of going on an old dirt road and you just fall into the rut. Even if you try to get out, you fall into the rut of thinking either it's everything that I believe or it's nothing I believe and there's no in between. And so you know, after kind of being educated through, that there were some. There is a national movement called Right on Crime, kind of a play on the political right, but also it is right and dealing with criminal justice. And it is a little tricky at times, even when working with conservative folks who will say talk about the Bible requiring us to forgive, but the Bible also requires government and gives government a role in wielding the sword and in punishing wrongdoers. So it's finding the balance. That has been one of the fascinating parts of the journey for me on this is understanding that there is a role for government that God intends, but there are also ways that we can, whether it's restorative justice and providing face-to-face meetings with people who are victims of crime and those who committed the crime, or whether it's where most of our focus at Empower is is trying to help people prepare for reentering society, prepare for when they get out of prison so that they are equipped with job skills, with teaching, with normal skills of working with people, people and could be mental health treatment, could be drug treatment, job training all sorts of ways to prepare people so that when they get out they can take a different path. And I will tell you this in the people that I've talked to who have done a lot of work in the prisons in preparing for reentry, almost without fail, they have said the real changes that occur in people who are in prison it comes through a faith aspect, whether that's becoming a Christian or learning to what they had learned as a child, that that creates permanent change, not just behavioral change for the moment. And so all of that mixes into how I view the criminal justice.
Speaker 4:We have worked together on it. We battled hard yesterday Actually we were supposed to record this yesterday but we couldn't because we were facing a battle in the legislature over a bill to prohibit boards and commissions from denying an occupational license to somebody just because they have a criminal record and so we were able to get that through. It's now through both houses in different forms, so it's not quite ready to go to the governor yet. It's now through both houses in different forms, so it's not quite ready to go to the governor yet. But it's a challenge because people are so set in their ways of thinking one way or the other, either let them all out or lock them all up, and so finding ways is actually. It's a challenge, but it's something I enjoy and I think God has given me some experiences and skills to be able to navigate that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the call and the task of dealing rightly when it concerns people and communities is a lot more great than people are willing to admit. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Multifaceted, yeah, yeah. And one other thing I do want to mention that I love doing and because of certain circumstances I haven't been able to focus on it, but I'm about to again is I've had this long had this desire to work with Black business owners to help them overcome the obstacles to their growth, not as this white guy coming out with all the answers, but as somebody to come in and just like with disciples, just walking alongside and saying what do you see as the obstacles to your growth? And just the deepening understanding I've had from life experiences and business experiences and but just the relationships that I've been able to develop through those have really opened my eyes to a lot of things that people wouldn't think of normally need for you to try, because the deck is stacked against you, but to help them with connections to either other business owners they can sell to or whatever the case may be in their business. Because I've run an organization and, as you know, that's like running a business, but in terms of selling products I haven't done that, but I think I could find the answer so I can walk alongside them and point them to places and people, and eventually that may have a public policy side to it as well, like the occupational licensing. But really, this is my desire is to help grow the black business community and the economy. And what I tell white people or politicians is this is 37% of our population.
Speaker 4:And another thing I learned in a Phil Reed group I think we were talking about poverty there in one of these groups is that in the 1960s, when I was growing up, 1% of the economy and GDP was produced by black-owned businesses, and now in Mississippi it's 1%. It's still 1%, and it's 39% white. The 60% is corporate, so it's not like it's 1% in 99, but still that percentage hasn't changed. Well, why is that? And so part of it might be getting government out of the way. Part of it is the white business community and the black business community. This might even be something y'all could do, because it's not political.
Speaker 4:White business and black community don't. Black business community don't know each other, and so they don't even know. Hey, I could call you to be you know, if I need this in my business, you know I'm going to call you. I don't know to do that because I don't know you right, because you do business with people. You know people who know people. You know, and so bringing those people together, uh is, um is a huge part of the answer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you've given us so much to chew on man, but the way that you kind of led us in that last statement gives us an opportunity to ask this question what hopes do you have for the future of Mississippi as it relates to the public square, the opportunities that we have to work across the aisle left leaning, right, leaning, progressive, progressive, conservative signs of light do you see in?
Speaker 4:this current moment that allows you to kind of keep tipping away at this work. Well, for one thing, people have asked me how in the world? I have been in this world for 30 years in the political world and I'd say I just do what I think God is calling me to do and leave the results to Him. But I do see, and this does give me hope I do see in the younger generation of legislators much more openness, much more willingness to learn about each other and to work with each other.
Speaker 4:There's a senator right now that was criticized by a statewide official. It was on a policy issue to start with, but then it became. There was a picture of this white legislator who was fist bumping or laughing with a black legislator and he was criticized for that. But that was one of those political conservatives that did that. But to me, that younger generation of legislators black and white are much more open to working with each other and are not tied to some of the things that genuinely occurred to the older members of the legislature, that they're kind of still hanging on to white and black, the old ways of thinking about each other. So that part gives me hope.
Speaker 1:That's really cool. That's really cool, man Forrest. This has been a really really good conversation, really really good lessons learned and gleaned, and so we are grateful to you for that. For those who would like to keep up with Forrest Thigpen, can you share any social media, any public knowledge that would be useful to keep up?
Speaker 4:with Forest Dick. I'm somewhat of a dinosaur on that. I do follow friends on Facebook but I actually generally don't accept friend requests, like from politicians. I understand, I understand and on Twitter I read it, but I don't ever post, so I don't like there.
Speaker 1:But Empower.
Speaker 4:Mississippi. Empower and. I'm not post Add a lot there. Empower Mississippi. Empower MSorg is where I work. You can follow our work there. Email address is forest1resd at empowermsorg. I'd love to hear from people Excellent.
Speaker 1:Brother, thank you so much. Thank you for your representation of the kingdom in the public square. We recently had a representative, ronnie Crudup Jr online with us a couple of episodes ago, and both you and him are incredible representatives of the kingdom in the public square. So we're so grateful that we got good people in the midst of all of this kind of chaos that we think about when we think about politics. Our minds don't think that there are good people in the square, and so we are so grateful to have good people in the political square representing the kingdom and representing a pursuit of flourishing for all people. So thank you so much. Thank you Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And for those of y'all who are listening online today to our podcast, feel free to not only like this episode and share this episode, but feel free to subscribe to Living Reconciled. You can do so by visiting any podcast apps or websites like Apple Pods or Google or Spotify or Amazon. Wherever you might think about podcasts, you can find Living Reconciled, and we would love for you to like, share and subscribe to our podcast. Again. This has been Brian Crawford, austin Hoyle, nettie Winters, with our new friend, forrest Digpin, signing off saying God bless, god bless, thanks for joining Living Reconciled. If you would like more information on how you can be a part of the ongoing work of helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured, please visit us online at missionmississippiorg or call us at 601-353-6477. Thanks again for listening you.
