Living Reconciled
Living Reconciled, hosted by Mission Mississippi, is a podcast dedicated to exploring reconciliation and the Gospel that enables us to live it out. Mission Mississippi has been leading the way in racial reconciliation in Mississippi for 31 years. Our model is to bring people together to build relationships across racial lines so they can work together to better their communities. Our mission is to encourage and demonstrate grace in the Body of Christ across racial lines so that communities throughout Mississippi can see practical evidence of the gospel message.
Living Reconciled
EP. 67: Faith, Finance, and Reconciliation with Chris McAlpin
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What if your financial decisions could reflect your deepest values and faith? In this episode, we sit down with financial advisor Chris McAlpin, who shares his journey from high-stakes finance to faith-driven stewardship. We explore how money, societal values, and personal beliefs shape our sense of contentment and purpose. Chris unpacks biblical principles on wealth, challenges societal views on success, and highlights the role of financial stewardship in social causes like racial reconciliation. Join us as we redefine true wealth—prioritizing wisdom, relationships, and purpose over mere financial gain.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Mississippi College, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple Church, Mississippi State University, Real Christian Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters.
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated to giving our communities practical evidence of the gospel message by helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured for us by living with grace across racial lines. Hey, thanks so much for joining us on this episode of Living Reconciled. I am your host, brian Crawford, and I am hanging out with my incredible good friends Nettie Winters, austin Hoyle. Gentlemen, how are you doing?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm doing man, I'm being consistent. I'm still an incredible friend man. It hadn't changed that category, so I'm excited.
Speaker 1:Also, how about you, man, you doing good.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, I'm going real well. No, no issues here, Just just just pastoring in Columbia, Mississippi. That's all I've got going on Awesome.
Speaker 1:Awesome and you still are a good friend as well. So great to have you guys join us, great for the, for the audience to listen, the audience to be listening in. Just want to give a quick shout out to our good friends who sponsor this podcast, folks like Mississippi College and Anderson United Methodist Church, grace Temple Church, mississippi State University, real Christian Foundation, nissan, st Dominic's Hospital, atlas, energy, regis Foundation, brown Missionary Baptist Church, and then good folks like Ms Doris Powell, robert Ward and Winters. Thank you, guys, so much for everything that you do. It's because of what you do we are able to do what we do.
Speaker 1:And what Mission Mississippi on Living Reconciled does is that we think about the intersection between life, between vocation, between faith and the work of reconciliation. And so we have a guest with us today that we're excited to have that conversation with, mr Chris McAlpin. Chris is a financial advisor, but he's a deeply devoted Christian. He received his undergraduate degree from University of Mississippi. He received his MBA from Mississippi College, studied finance at King's College in London hear all about and also he is a volunteer chaplain at a state prison here in the state of Mississippi. So we can't wait to talk to Chris and hear about all of these different things, that are all of these different pots that he has his hands in, and also just learn a little bit about how his life has intersected as it relates to faith, vocation and reconciliation.
Speaker 4:Chris brother, how are you doing today?
Speaker 1:man, I'm good my man Glad to be on. Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 4:Already started enjoying talking to all you guys.
Speaker 1:Brother, we are so so incredibly, incredibly grateful to have you on and incredibly grateful that you would give us a little time to talk to you on this episode of Living Reconciled. Let me jump right in and I'll start with a quick question to kind of warm you up a little bit. But it appears, just kind of walking through your bio and your story, that you've spent quite a number of years thinking through finance, but it also looks like you emphasize biblical financial management. Can you give us a little bit of your story as to how you ended up just moving from simply thinking about finance through just the typical terms and language to moving to a place where you're thinking about biblical finance and how Christians can steward their finance for the glory of God?
Speaker 4:Sure, sure. So I am just old enough that early in my career kind of stretches back to the old school boiler room days, the type of days where they made movies. You know about actually one name boiler room, or the Wolf of Wall Street or the two Wall Street movies, all that kind of stuff. So I remember reading that a Hollywood director said said ben diesel boiler room.
Speaker 1:How?
Speaker 4:about that that's right in the greatest movie speech. It's completely unbiblical.
Speaker 2:But uh uh, ben affleck pulling the keys out of his head yes, money.
Speaker 4:you say money came by happiness. Look at the smile on his face. I completely cleaned that up. That's not how he said it. So I'm old enough to stretch back to those days. I remember my dad was a carpenter, had a ranch construction crew, was a contractor. My mom was a math teacher. I remember getting my first job as a theme winner as a stock broker's assistant when I was in college and the language inside there was so foul I thought I was still on a construction crew.
Speaker 3:I was like man, I'm at home. That was like that's how I grew up, it's all right.
Speaker 4:And as I got out I got out of school and met my wife God started changing my life. I realized one that didn't last very well, and two, I had no idea the depth of how well that does not last. I do now, but I knew that I had to have. I knew that I needed to work with people with more money than me to be successful, and common sense told me that, no matter how much education I had, that just didn't make sense. They had more money than me.
Speaker 4:Why should this 20-something-year-old kid tell them what to do with their money? That makes no sense whatsoever. I thought okay, the Bible knows everything. That's where all the source of wisdom is. I started studying everything I could get my hands on about what the Bible said about money, fell in love with the topic, because the Bible has about 2,300 or so verses on money, where a lot of Jesus is. About 11 out of his 40 parables. 40 or so parables speak to money or use money as the topic, and so it's a topic that God knew would just chase our hearts and chase our minds Everybody wants to be a billionaire.
Speaker 4:Everybody wants to be a billionaire. Yes, and we live in a society. At every socioeconomic level, money means something, money means you're important, money means you're somebody, and so it just chases our hearts. It always runs after our hearts, and so now, 20-something years into my career, I still see it Even more honestly. The older I get, the more it breaks my heart that I want to just teach on this topic more and more, because we're just a society that's soaked in wealth.
Speaker 1:My goodness, I'm a lot of you soaked in wealth, man.
Speaker 2:At the end of this podcast, are we going to be soaked in wealth with top 10 and 77?
Speaker 4:of americans are worried about their financial future. So it you know, nate. Our problem is is that we always know somebody that's wealthier than we are but compared to the rest of the world rest of the world's looking at us going you guys are like the richest people in the world and y'all are arguing over the last 10 bucks. You know, because we all know some before you know. We all know who Bill Gates is, or Mark Zuckerberg or Elon Musk, and yet to somebody else in the world, there is much of a wealth gap between us and them, as between Musk or Gates or Zuckerberg and us, musk or Gates or Zuckerberg and us.
Speaker 4:And so in our society, we know people well, dude, and that's tough because we're always comparing ourselves to other people. But to the rest of the world I mean, if you live in some of the third world countries, you're just surviving for the next meal maybe, but you don't have the media that we have to know what you're comparing yourself to. So it's hard on us mentally and spiritually. But yeah, you're right, nettie, at the end of this we're all going to be soaked in wealth. We're just going to add a zero to the net worth there.
Speaker 1:It's funny you mentioned that.
Speaker 2:Chris, I've been more and more excited about this podcast.
Speaker 4:Look, everybody loves to have me on their podcast. For that reason, that's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, man. It's funny you mentioned this, chris, because literally I've been reflecting. I was telling Nettie, before the podcast started, that I've been sitting in Luke 6 for a little bit, preaching through it in my church, and of course that's where the sermon on the plane, the Beatitudes, and Jesus says blessed are the poor, blessed are the hungry, blessed are those that weep, blessed are those that are reviled for my namesake. And so you have poverty, hunger, suffering and hatred for my namesake. Right, he says hey, you can be blessed. If you're in me. You can find blessing even in, even in those experiences In me. You can find blessing, even in those experiences.
Speaker 1:But of course, the only way we typically believe we can find blessing is in being rich, rich, full, entertained and well-liked, and that's the only way we can process blessing in a world where 71% of the world lives on less than $10 a day and 50% of the world lives on less than $7.50 a day. And so there has to be a truth to this reality that you can find joy outside of what we believe we can find joy in. But of course we are so conditioned, like you said, because this is the water that we swim in and this is just kind of part of our climate and part of our environmental condition where we believe this is the only way we can experience it. And I wrestle with that even in my own life. And so it's funny that we're having this conversation with you today, because it's very much timely and I think it shapes so much of how we live and how we breathe and how we operate as Americans and as Christians in America in particular.
Speaker 4:We all have a different perspective. Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Excuse me, no, I was just going to say you know, when I was growing up I was happy, excited and just be around people, connect with folk, and then one day somebody told me I was poor man and all my happiness went away. Yeah, you.
Speaker 4:Just, I was reading an article about an old story from Jackson, and I'm not going to name the same name of the street, but but, but it was. It was an old gangster that was being interviewed and he said the exact same thing. He said, man, I had a great childhood, didn't know it was different from anybody else, until I got a little bit older and realized we're poor. Yeah, you know Right. But, brian, to your point, we're conditioned and this is Christ followers too. This is good, christ-loving, people-loving people. They spend five days a week at work and one day a week at church, and maybe Wednesday night at church and maybe occasionally volunteer for something on Saturday. But that five days, eight hours a day, 40 hours a week or more. And it's saying this is how you work to get that next promotion, that next raise, to put more in the 401k, and this is how I'm investing my 401k and I'm doing great, and I want to retire at 55 instead of 65.
Speaker 4:And all of a sudden, you start seeing all these different machinations, since we get matured financially by society more than we get matured financially by the Bible, and so it's very hard we read something in the Bible, like all the scriptures that you just said, or you go into what Jesus teaches in the Sermon on the Mount on money. What he's saying, don't worry about it. Like, don't worry about it. And we're like, what do you mean, don't worry about it? Aren't we supposed to work? Well, yes, what do you mean, don't worry about it? Shouldn't we save for the future? Well, yes, but what? So accustomed to worrying that we don't know how to? Not? It is a foreign concept to actually trust God with our provision. And it's really hard, it's really foreign when a financial advisor starts teaching you that because they're like Chris, aren't you supposed to make me money? Like, yeah, but yeah, absolutely, the Bible actually gives me different instructions. You know well, I can make, know and other instructions as well, absolutely.
Speaker 1:No. It's funny because it's like, yes, there's a good end. This is not a, this is not an. When I advocate to say, no, you should just kind of burn all of your dollars. This is not. This is not what we're advocating. This is not what we're advocating.
Speaker 1:There's a right perspective that has to be established, because if you don't have the right perspective, then it doesn't matter how little you have or how much you have. You're still going to live in ruin and you're going to still live in spiritual poverty and spiritual bankruptcy. Yeah, yeah, can you uh make sure that my life is secure? How can you make sure that, that, that, that I got security and that I can uh, and that I can swim, and swim in money like Nettie Winters? So, to those Christian leaders that are coming to you on a day-to-day basis and you're operating from this different kind of conviction and this different kind of perspective, how do you help them see their money and their financial influence that they have as a tool for not just wealth building, but for kingdom building and for even matters like reconciliation and impacting communities? What role do you play in helping Christian leaders see their money for something bigger than themselves?
Speaker 2:Now, Chris, before you jump in, I want to clarify something. Brian said he's talking about Nettie Winter soaking in money. I want to be clear that if you work for a Christian nonprofit, you don't gain wealth.
Speaker 1:Well, yes and amen, yes and amen to that Nettie, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:Chris would recommend that to someone coming here Do not work for a Christian non-profit. You're going to hell with it.
Speaker 4:No, no, You're storing up wealth in heaven. You're storing up wealth in heaven.
Speaker 2:Paul Amen, I'm not about to make some eggs. Man Make some eggs. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah. But yeah, that's right, yeah, yeah, but y'all are just following what Paul said to Timothy Struck those who are rich in this world not to be arrogant, not to trust their money, trust God and store up wealth in heaven. And Brian, so that happens it really to that Christian leader. Everybody goes through seasons of life that God uses to cause you to listen to him. Some of those seasons for some people are a little bit less painful. Some of those seasons for some of us some of us are a little hardheaded, maybe it's a little more painful.
Speaker 4:And when that business leader's going through that season is when we get to have the best conversation, because they've been successful and that success doesn't satisfy them. And that is when they start to ask questions, especially as a Christ follower, of what? What am I called to do? What does God want me to do? What doors are opening up for me to serve others? How can I use my business to invest in God's kingdom? And they start praying through and they start talking through and they have conversations.
Speaker 4:I get the privilege of having conversations with them and other leaders in their lives have conversations with them, and that's when they really start to see a change in their life, and we see this in the Bible, how God uses different seasons through His people in the Bible, and we see this in history, that God's doing this as well. I think that's the biggest key that at that point I get to say, well, hey, what's God making you excited about? What ministries and what's broken in the world that you just like man? I want to see this fixed Like go there, cause that's where God's moving you to go.
Speaker 2:Right you know.
Speaker 3:Go ahead, alston. Oh no, I was just about to ask because I think God moving us where to go. I love what Paul says in Philippians 4, 11 through 13,. When he says I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances, he's learned the secret behind it. His passages remind us that wealth itself is neither the problem nor it's the solution, but it's really just where we place our trust. It's where we have the love of our money. So I'm looking at this.
Speaker 3:So how do we coach people to not have that love of money? How do we coach people to move beyond where their hearts are? To the point, because you can have the covetousness in your heart if you don't have any money and you see that as the end all be, all of all your solutions, and you're not content having that, and then you can have a tremendous amount of wealth. And then you can have a tremendous amount of wealth, and then you can be just assumed by the need to either preserve what you have or to expand on what you have, and the means by which you acquire either of those can cause real pain. Because that's, you know, with the love of money, it's a, it's a lack of contentment. So how, how would you, how would you coach people, uh, in those situations, those who both have none, and then both those who have a tremendous amounts, um, but uh, but are continuing to have that sense of drive and that, that, that lack of contentment?
Speaker 3:I'm not, I'm not saying that everybody who has ambition and drive are doing it for wrong reasons. Some people can have ambition and drive and they're utilizing their funds in an incredibly smart, savvy way that helps the rest of society and helps really just the rest of our species in tremendous biblical ways. But at the same time, you do have that love of money, which is the rest of our species and, uh, in tremendous biblical ways, but but at the same time you do have that love of money which is the root of all evil. I believe is what Timothy uh calls it. What was that? What was that passage? Is it? Uh, I think 36.
Speaker 4:Chapter six yeah, just a few verses before. He says instruct those who are rich in this world. He does. He says the love of money, fruit of all sorts of evil.
Speaker 3:I think it's verse 10 or something like that. So, it's just like wow, that's the root of all evil, right?
Speaker 4:I think there's two things, and you just mentioned Philippians 4, but in Philippians 3, we see Paul where his ambitions come out. So Paul was extremely driven and extremely ambitious and we see that with God's men and women all through the Bible. You typically got written about or you wrote a book because you were ambitious for something and it had to do with God's kingdom in some way. But I think that we find our love of money in. I can sum it up in two areas, and it's we either find our significance in money or wealth, wealth creation, success. In some form. We find our security and so when someone's finding their significance, especially that business owner, they got to sell that business for an X multiple or they have X revenue, x profit or the X amount in their investment account, x amount under 401k. However, at every socioeconomic level people find their significance. They become somebody with money in a dollar figure. And the second one is that security, and I use this example Security is in what form? That arrogant heiress that gets to just buy people, that arrogant heiress that just gets to have her way in life because she can afford to get her way, period, and we'll use the word scared, because there's nothing wrong with retiring, but that scared retiree that is constantly worried about themselves outliving their money. There's a wise side to that, but there's an enormously dangerous side to that. I'm talking about the dangerous side. Both of that arrogant heiress and that scared retiree are using money for their security as opposed to the Lord.
Speaker 4:I'm teaching a class right now. It's interesting. I googled, excuse me, I used GPT for interesting. I Googled, excuse me, I used a chat, gpt for this, and I wanted to know what was the list. Why does money have some type of power over us? I'm pulling exactly what this says. It says that everything that it comes from that our survival, our choices, our overall well-being that money gives us we're supposed to look to God for, not money. And that's what, in the Sermon on the Mount, jesus is talking about it there in chapter six, matthew chapter six, where he is saying all of these things that we worry about, look to God, trust God for it, don't trust your money for it. And I think Austin, that is at its core. When people start loving money, ok, they start fighting big wars or street fights, ok, that's, that's where that comes from. It's that significance or security.
Speaker 2:So he's, a seeker from God. What about gold? Gold, gold, yeah. What about gold? Yeah, what about it? You said not in your money, but in God, but as a goal between money and God, so you can move from money to go, like people, to now.
Speaker 4:You can move from money to gold.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you know people are concerned about uh in in your business, uh many of your counterparts or everybody you want to put that, or recommend people getting gold. Yeah, no, in terms of that uh more security and and and.
Speaker 4:All kidding aside, though, I'll tell you how, how fickle even that recommendation is. I remember doing my internship in the nineties and I asked to buy gold and I remember the managing director of the firm said son, gold's for jewelry, go buy your girlfriend something. In other words, we didn't even study it, I didn't know any better, but at that point, for the last 15 or 16 years, gold hadn't made a return. Well now, if you held gold for the last five years, you've made a lot. I don't know the percentage off the top of my head, but if you've had it since COVID, you've made a lot of money in that period.
Speaker 2:I got this question and I've asked my financial guy and he said he doesn't have an answer. So if the dollar is going to be worth nothing, how are you going to get the money out of the gold? Help me understand what the gold is going to do that my money won't do, because the money is no good.
Speaker 4:Then what am I going to do with the gold when I can't sell the gold? That's exactly right. That's exactly right. I'm not going to say the dollar is not going to be worthless in your lifetime unless Jesus comes back or we lose a very big war. But you're exactly right, it's. What currency is the gold that you own denominated in? And if you're holding gold at home, what good is that going to do if we're in such an apocalyptic environment you're, you're afraid of something and you're trying to solve it with something that, if you just think a little bit, it's not going to solve it. I tell clients a lot of times when they asked me that then they should I store up gold and silver? No, go buy beans and ammo Actually. Up gold and silver? No, go buy beans and ammo Actually don't.
Speaker 2:Did he say beans and ammo. Beans and ammo, yeah, Beans and ammo yeah.
Speaker 4:And then I say in all seriousness let's open up the book of Revelation and let's have a conversation.
Speaker 1:You know, I think to your point. I mean just what you've been describing, chris. It all makes sense. Even get back to Matthew 6. It makes so much sense why there's this warning from Christ personalized effect that he gives to money, that that is, that that is an idol, that that that operates in a way, that that is, that is, you know, above and beyond some of the idols of our hearts that we may think of right and that, and that is like I said, it's personalized in a sense. Um, because so much of what we are driven by, whether we realize it or not. Getting back to your point about the ideal, security and status, all of that is tied into how we view money versus how we view God, and so it's just an incredible, incredible thing to process and think on thing to process and think on, even how we identify ourselves and how we see ourselves in terms of the money that we accumulate or have or in fact don't have.
Speaker 2:Because some people, some scholars, say when he said, for the love of money is the root of all evil, right? Well, those that don't have it is loving it too much, right?
Speaker 4:Agreed, but get agreed, yeah, but agreed does it does? And Nanny, I'm going to come back to that point in just a second, but I want to go to what Brian just said, when Jesus talked about you cannot serve God and mammon mammon that word and there's a lot of scholarly debate on this, but I believe, based on both what I see in scripture and what I see in the world that I work in, that he's talking about the spirit of wealth.
Speaker 1:The Greeks would have called this spirit this false God Pluto's.
Speaker 4:The Romans would have called this false God Pluto. We named their ninth planet. Then there's some debate as to whether or not that's a planet or not, but that's for another podcast. But that spirit of wealth is one that just kind of seeps in, and this is not. I don't think he's just talking about serving money in and of itself, because money in and of itself is just a tool, and if we just can treat it like a tool and put it in its place, it's good, it's when it starts becoming our significance, it starts becoming our security, and that's what I meant earlier.
Speaker 4:You know there is a time you should save money, you should invest money. That's very clear in 2 Corinthians 9. I can show you other places in the Bible. But being wise with our money is just treating money as a tool, using it as our significance and our security, where we get our success, our security again, our status, from it. Now we're talking about the spirit of mammon and that's when it starts to infiltrate our life.
Speaker 4:But, nanny, what you were just saying where, yes, there are some people that don't have money think a lot about money, but people that do have a lot of money worry about it in completely different ways there was a member of the Vanderbilt family I believe it was about 100, 125 years ago that said $200 million is enough to kill any man. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. And that's $200 million 100, 125 years ago. That's a lot of money today, right, like that's a lot of money today, right, $200 million is a lot of money. Now, can you imagine that, having the responsibility for $200 million and the weight? And I know a lot of people listen to this and go like I can't imagine it, but I'd like to have that problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I get it. I would too. You're talking to one here, man, I'd love to have a problem. Yeah, I'm like give me that problem. Yeah, give me that problem, I'd give it all up to him at Mission Mississippi, that's right, get after him, man, he'll manage it.
Speaker 4:Yep, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, give it to.
Speaker 4:Brian, give it to Brian. No-transcript. It really starts to break down a lot. Every advisor you work talk to, you're worried about them trying to to sell you something or, uh, abuse you in some way to profit them. That's every conversation you're in now, and so you're constantly with this group of people that you hope they are looking after your best interest. And now, all of a sudden, you feel like you're being babysat all the time. You can't just go be a regular person somewhere, and that's not if you're a celebrity, but you have a lot of those same kind of problems. So so, yeah it it both it it it does. This money has this weird hold Almost. That's why the Bible talks about it all the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you, you know, in that light, you know, I, I, a few years ago they did, they done some documentaries on people that won the lotto, right, you, a few years ago they'd done some documentaries on people who won the lotto, right? You know, one lady won the lotto and they said to her well, what are you going to do? She said I'm going to go get me a double wide. So you know, different people have different expectations of how to do it. But they went back years later and interviewed these people. In many instances, the people that won the big money were worse off when they went back than they were before they won the money. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:It's that strange.
Speaker 2:Even some of them ended up in jail and other bad things happened to them because the money is like wow, it became their god, and too often that happens with us in terms of you know the gambling industry will tell you how wonderful it is to pull that lever, win all this money, but they never tell you about the other side of the coin or how many people pull that lever and kill themselves or done some other crazy thing because they want to get rich quick.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely. One thing I'm thinking about, especially with gambling, where we give away our money, and throughout our conversation thus far we've talked about how money can either be used for kingdom work or really just an idol that grips our hearts, that God calls his people to release that grip on their wealth, is through tithing. I mean, you see that throughout the scriptures, really even the Old Testament emphasizes this significantly. You have Genesis 14, 19 and 20, when Abraham gives a tenth of his spoils to Meshulzadek, who's the priest of God the most high, long before even the law was given to tell us to do it. Leviticus 27, 30 is when tithing is formalized into law for Israel, where God declares that a tithe of everything from the land belongs to the Lord and it's holy to the Lord. It wasn't about giving necessarily the temple, but it was about acknowledging that everything we have ultimately belongs to God. I mean even Malachi, 3.8.10,. It says you know, we see God directly challenging his people asking will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. And he's telling them to bring the full tithe into the storehouse and just the promises of just open floodgates of heaven when they do so.
Speaker 3:The message is very clear Withholding from God reflects a heart that does not trust him. You know, I mean especially, you know, touching on the aspects of gambling, which is we freely give away money, probably far more than a tenth of our income, those who are gripped by that type of thing. And yet we have Christians who struggle with tithing, you know, often out of fear for financials. Skepticism about what's important, we see it throughout the scripture. Even Mark 12 says in the New Testament about the, when he commends the widow's offering, not because she gave much, because she gave sacrificially, not because she gave much because she gave sacrificially. So I mean, we have Christians in our midst who are more willing to be sacrificial, let's say, in the practice of gambling than they are in the practice of tithing, but yet they lose more through gambling, but it's yet in the pursuit of that higher wealth.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, austin, let's not even rigid um, regulated just to the or confided to, you know, gambling and and things of that nature. But even I was just, you know, christians that are that are more committed, you know to, to investment, you know, oh yeah, investment in stocks and bonds and things of that nature. Christians that are more committed to commerce or not commerce, but you know entertainment, you know, so we have, you know, two dozen, two dozen, you know, uh, streaming profiles in terms of netflix, hulu, etc. Etc. Etc. But you know, but we're, we may be rich in entertainment but poor in our, you know, in our sacrifices for kingdom you know.
Speaker 4:So there's like so many different ways to you know to to eat that yeah, I noticed nobody. Y'all really don't want to start meddling and say that nobody's spending money on, like state Ole Miss and southern football or anything like that.
Speaker 2:Oh, we can throw that out there.
Speaker 4:You want listeners to stay.
Speaker 2:Kill the fee, kill the fee Kill, the fee Kill the fee.
Speaker 3:Oh, I was about to double down alongside Chris on that one man.
Speaker 4:Yeah, take off, austin, get on it.
Speaker 3:I'll get on it with you Listen, man, the people I was like, let's talk about the football. Yeah, the people that get rid of.
Speaker 2:I grew up. I do not want to hear that conversation there, man yeah.
Speaker 3:I went to Mississippi College, Chris, so I was just like, yeah, football isn't.
Speaker 4:It depends on when you're there now it depends on when you're there. There was a time that there were some studs that played at that school.
Speaker 2:Now, yeah, yeah, you're right, you're right you got a real question guys yeah, let me ask you.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you a really really, really big question. That's been kind of gripping me since we've had this conversation and we and we're kind of rounding the turn here, so I really want to make sure I get it in. But you know, we've been talking about biblical stewardship and we've been talking about, you know, matters of the heart in terms of how we think about money and how we steward it and for kingdom purposes. Where do you see financial wisdom, financial stewardship or biblical stewardship? Where do you see it intersecting in our work of reconciliation and racial healing? What are some ways in which you think this lands on the work of racial healing, reconciliation, connecting communities across these dividing lines?
Speaker 4:All right, I think that's in a few ways and it's not financial only. We see a lot of the Old Testament teaching where the teaching leads to sharing a meal, sitting down and sharing a meal with somebody. In ancient times, what that had to do with Brian. If you and I shared a meal together, that meant you were introducing me to your friends, to your network. Okay, and I think that in racial reconciliation in Mississippi especially but this is true for all over the nation that working with ministries that connect resources from resourced areas, okay, to the unresourced areas and I'm using the word specifically resources, not just money, because I think of resources as money, yes, but a person's time, a person's skills, a person's network.
Speaker 4:I remember studying this years ago in different poverty alleviation ministries and one person that worked in a particular area of the world said we have this old idea give a man a fish, feed him for a day, teach a man to fish feed him for a lifetime. Well, when you work in ministry in different contexts, you might find a fisherman who's a better fisherman than you. He just needs to ride to the pond, right?
Speaker 4:He just needs a little bit of money to buy bait one time Okay.
Speaker 4:So a lot of times, those with resources show up and say I'm just going to write a check and I'm going to solve all the world's problems. No, you're probably not All right. You may need to show up in racial reconciliation. We need to recognize the under-resourced areas and the over-resourced areas in the state and we can spend time looking at the history as to why we have rich and poor in the state and that matters a lot, okay and recognize those that have money and have wealth need to recognize that you were main reason that you have money and you have wealth was that you were born into it.
Speaker 4:Okay, you were born in the United States. You were born in a wealthy, safe, relatively peaceful area that you could go to school at a good school, you could learn and you had the opportunity to get a good career whether that was a job or you own your own business and you were blessed to be born in that area, and some people were not as blessed as you, and so we're sharing our resources. Going back to 1 Timothy 6 there, when Paul says instruct those who are rich in this world, and one of those things I would instruct those who are rich in this world is to take the lead because you're leading from a position of strength to reconcile across racial lines right, white, black, brown. I know we use the word race, but when you actually look in the bible there's one. There's peoples. You know like we have different skin colors, but there's only one race, okay we identify by ethnicity, it's not by race.
Speaker 2:Yes, sir, there you go.
Speaker 4:Yes, there you go, there you go absolutely that's right, it's, it's so, so, so, across different ethnicities, and say, all right, you're made in in God's image and God's blessed me this way. How can I help you? And but you got to go. You can't just show up and write a check. And then there's times that it's good to write a check and get out of the way. Ok, to those who can write a check. There's times to write a check and get out of the way, no doubt about it.
Speaker 4:But a lot of times it is better to show up, build a relationship and share more than your checkbook. But share your book of resources. Okay, who do I know who's in my network? How can you know my skills in business? Can I help you build a business? And in all of those areas you can tell I get really excited about this. But you still got to go sit down that one-on-one and build that relationship. And I think that's where you really start to go sit down that one-on-one and build that relationship. And I think that's where you really start to see racial reconciliation and that because it changes hearts and minds on both sides of that, of that conversation.
Speaker 2:We like to think of it. Don't send your check. Bring your check, come with your check.
Speaker 4:I like that. I'm going to borrow that. Can I borrow that? Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 2:I just made it up while you were talking. I like that.
Speaker 4:All right, I'm going to keep it hidden every time I say it. Danny Winters once told me.
Speaker 3:But as a ministry leader, I always like to say but even if you don't come, please you can send your check. Send your check.
Speaker 1:If you can't make it.
Speaker 4:If you can't make it. Brian, I think you know y'all asked me this and some of the information before we got on the podcast together. You know what changed a lot of my view, and that is when I started working as a volunteer in the state penitentiary system and I started seeing how unjust our justice system is. I just didn't know and it wasn't like I grew up with a lot of money, I just grew up regular work, you know middle-class kids, you know, and just you start to see. You look at somebody and go you're in here for what? And I'm thinking crap, you got to be kidding me and I've been going in there now for 13, 14 years, so I've heard that story heartbreaking too many times to go. Man, this is messed up and that's not an indictment on people in the justice system. That's not what it is Right right, absolutely.
Speaker 4:It's not as wholesome and just of a system as we like to pretend it is sometimes. It's not at all.
Speaker 1:All systems have humans behind them, and so they're prone to failure, even the best system.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the best system has that, but it's interesting to me how there's a group in our society that sees that without even thinking about it Because of the position, the plays how they grew up, their background, their color, their ethnicity, all of these things. They can see that. And then when they bump into Chris and Chris said well, you know God, I had to go to jail to see this God. In a sense, I got locked up to jail to see this.
Speaker 2:Not in the sense I got locked up in jail, but I went there. And so you see, from the other side perspective, and it goes back to what you said you could accomplish that without having to go to jail, but it's good that you went to jail. Now you have a greater perspective. But if we start the conversation, we start the conversation, we start the cultural relationships of understanding. Everybody don't see things the same way that you do it. So it's like I usually have these conversations and people come from the same community. Right, let's just say, let's use Punta Talk.
Speaker 2:I got three people in the room for Punta Talk, two of them are white and one is black, two whites in there talking about how wonderful it was to be raised in Punta Top County, in Punta Top, mississippi, and this black person got tears streaming down their face, man, and they can't wait to grab those two white people and say, like you didn't know over across that track how it was, I can't believe it, you just ignored us. You're not ignorant. Was? I can't believe it, you just ignored us, you're not ignorant, you just ignored us. And so when I say conversation, it takes a lot of time and energy to help people from across the tracks, on whichever side. You want to understand the other side, how they live, and so forth, and you think they would know, but they don't, nuh-uh. And.
Speaker 4:Eddie, you're right that you. I was thinking about that before we got on and how to articulate it the way you just articulated it, because I think everybody thinks the quote unquote other side of this conversation knows and that they're being willfully ignorant. Yourself into the conversation with a person on the other side of the conversation you realize they're they're not being willfully eager, that they, that they, they have they wipe. Uh, I found this in politics to be true. Someone used this. You know, like the person that has a different agreement, like like they have a, they're wanting to get to the same goal, they're just taking a different route and oftentimes in racial context, it's like, like man, I didn't know I'd have had a different opinion, if I knew.
Speaker 2:And all rich folks are not bigots, right? No, Right.
Speaker 4:Absolutely, that's right, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 1:You know you guys to your point. I'm sorry, go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 4:Chris, go ahead. No, I was going to say I'm sorry, go ahead, go ahead, chris, go ahead. And I want to make sure I change it in myself or God change it in me and change it in my family, and to be able to say that honestly, without the unneeded I'm trying to think of the word I'm looking for, but without unnecessary guilt falling on you for what's happened in a lineage, decades or generations before you. I think a lot of times, danny, when people hear the word you know that bigotry on wealthy people, and they go well, I'm not a bigot. Well, hang on, nobody just called you one. Just slow down. Let's be honest.
Speaker 4:Because if we recognize that Christ has forgiven me and you call me. I know you did just that, but if you call me a bigot, I'm going to go, man, that ain't the worst thing I've ever been. I ain't the worst thing. I've ever been called and I'm forgiven by Christ. So let me face this honestly and then let's do something about it to make the world around us better.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all rich folks are not bigot.
Speaker 4:All poor people are not robbing the bigots.
Speaker 1:That's right, right, yeah, right.
Speaker 2:We have this balance of understanding that you know. We just need to educate ourselves about each other, and you know to your point, nettie. I find that so important just within the blood relative family. That has to happen later on across the the cartel lines get it?
Speaker 4:can I, can I just cross the railroad tracks and have the conversation it's a little bit easier than sometimes across the dinner table at thanksgiving, I mean one.
Speaker 3:One of the things I've noticed that's, you know, that's almost the enemy of getting to know each other, and I think it lies at the heart of bigotry to a degree is that when people have done the work to understand other persons who have had radically different life experiences than them, and then, even on the other side of complexity, they still reject, necessarily, the language that's used because so many different people, groups, attempt to instill within society, either codified through law or culture or anything.
Speaker 3:And this is not a left wing thing, it's not a right wing thing, it's a human thing.
Speaker 3:And I think this is where the heart of bigotry lies is when we attempt to inflict upon others our understanding, so much so that it precludes anyone else from having an alternative view. And what that does is precludes those persons who have gone through the work to understand and then rejected the language that is trying to be instilled within the culture and within the society, whether that is left-wing language or right-wing language, right-wing language that's, it's still bigotry, because you're trying to inflict upon others how they should live, how they should think, how they should be, even if they don't understand, or even if they understand where you're coming from, but also have rejected the oversimplification that we reduce our experiences to. Does that make sense? It's kind of a very heady and abstract way of talking about it, because I didn't want to bring up one example over the other, because I wanted to say this is a human problem and it and it lies at the heart of of what bigotry is, because bigotry knows no uh socioeconomic or demographic, uh boundaries.
Speaker 3:It's uh, it's because any, any human can be a bigot. A woman can be bigotry, it can be a bigot towards men, men can be bigots towards women, whites can be bigots towards blacks and blacks can be bigots towards whites. And I think that that's a significant point that we sometimes don't appreciate in our culture as much. But sorry, I don't know if there's a question in there.
Speaker 2:I think Benjamin Watson simplified that in his book is that it's not a skin problem, it's a sin problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely you know, the one thing that stood out to me, even as we were having this conversation, guys, is you know we were talking about. You know? Don't, don't just sing your check, Bring your check. Again, we affirm that if you can't not bring your check, you can still send it. But but we want, we want you, we want you to bring it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we want to clarify, but, but, with that said, I think I think underneath that there's something to be said about the assumptions that we sometimes make that the people that have the most financial wealth are the ones that are bringing wealth. But what we've articulated, chris, even in this dialogue, is that you bringing your check is also an opportunity for you to accumulate wealth, because wealth comes in the experiences of rubbing shoulders with people who don't look like you, who don't come from the same backgrounds as you, the same experiences as you. There's a wealth of wisdom that comes even if they don't have the same wealth financially. There's a wealth of wisdom that comes through those relationships and those experiences and even, possibly, skill sets that they're bringing in and all these different opportunities. And so, for those that there are times in which the people with financial wealth as well as the people without financial wealth think that the person that's bringing the check is the one bringing all the wealth. But there needs to be more of an understanding that know that we're sharing wealth, that that that the person that's bringing the check has an opportunity to receive wealth as well. To receive wealth as well.
Speaker 1:I think about the fact that I go every second Saturday.
Speaker 1:Our church now goes every second Saturday to the Vicksburg convalescent home and we talk about all the time regularly that there is so much that we are gaining in this experience that could they be gaining something in this experience of us being present and spending time and playing goofy trivia games and all that kind of stuff and praying together and giving out gifts and candy and all that? Yeah, I'm sure there's some benefit for them. But, my goodness, the ability to sit with people who have lived lives that have far exceeded my eyes and just hear their stories and glean from their wisdom. There is so much wealth that I leave with after I've spent that time with them, and and and I think that's really at the heart of what we're sharing when we talk about sharing lives with one another that our wealth is beyond just the money that we have in our pockets. And if we could ever understand that, then we can understand that there's so much wealth that people are bringing, even if they aren't bringing any money 100% 100%.
Speaker 2:I think that was a clear example of what Chris said about him going to prison, exactly.
Speaker 1:And that's exactly what brought him to my life.
Speaker 2:That had built so much wealth into his life. You know, I like to think about it like this as a person that had to recruit board members for non-profit, I always think about. You want to find people that got the capacity to work, some that have wisdom and some that have wealth, but it's the balance of all that that brings it together to make the thing work.
Speaker 1:And so as we accumulate.
Speaker 2:We accumulate all three by our work, by our relationships, so that we can fully benefit. I think so often, chris and most people see it in wealth, but I see this as that God has so much to offer us through all of these channels of our work, of wisdom and what we gain in aging and growing and development, that we can benefit from the full expression experience that God wants us to have, and go way beyond money. And I'll leave it at that. That's kind of like my opinion.
Speaker 4:Well, and I think that when we focus on money and I'm going to say in any men are the worst at this.
Speaker 4:It's OK, we all mean success is that, that, that number, that that defining number. That means success to us, and so we're going to spend 30 or 40 years driving towards this number and along the way we build some really cool things, but we miss out on relationships and we miss out on the wealth of different experiences. And I'm not talking about taking a vacation, I'm talking about going and sitting down in a prison and watching the Super Bowl. I went with guys, watched one of the college playoff games and just sat there and watched the football game. We didn't talk about scripture. We prayed for the food before the pizza and just sat there and watched the football game with. We didn't talk about scripture, we prayed for the food before the pizza and just sat there and watched football.
Speaker 4:You know, and there's times that I have, easily they're one of my favorite groups to go watch a ball game with and I do hope to get to go watch the Super Bowl with them here in a few days. And so, yeah, you're right, but you just miss so many of those relationships. There's just so many different things the world has to offer that God is offering in our lifetime that we're missing by focusing just on money and money's just a tool a lot of times you take along with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you're right about the men, because the women enjoy the relationship, the friendship, the fellowship. You know, sometimes we can lose a friend and it's like, okay, it's a lot more out there. You know, it may be a bump in the road a little bit, but it devastates a female to lose a friend man. It's like you spend time with a close man. It devastates them. So this thing of relationship we can learn a lot from our wives. It devastates them. So this thing of relationship we can learn a lot from our wives. I think that's why God brought us together to make that balance, so we can learn to process all of that in terms of how we grow and develop together in this relational thing.
Speaker 2:And so wealth got a lot of great things that can contribute to the whole and I think with the right wisdom and the right heart from God, we can do that and do it in the right way, and I think you wanted an example there. Chris, I appreciate what you do, appreciate you being with us. Thank you for sharing like that.
Speaker 1:Thank you for having me Absolutely. I appreciate it Absolutely. Chris man, how can people keep up with Chris McAlpin the work that you do, if they McAlpin the work that you do, if they want to lean more?
Speaker 4:into biblical stewardship and learn from you. How can they keep up with you, brother? A couple of ways. Go to soundfsgcom and you can look for our latest book, which is titled Money. Buy the book, download it, it's free. It's ebook-linked, so it's short and it goes through our simple steps of biblical financial planning. And then you get on our email list and when we send out articles then I write a lot.
Speaker 4:Go back to that link or site that you said to begin with Okay, sound, f-s-g, so that's S-O-U-N-D, just like the word sound, and then the three letters F, as in Frank S, as in Sam G, as in Georgecom. And you can find our book Money by the Book on that link.
Speaker 2:I like that, actually Money by the Book Good.
Speaker 1:Awesome.
Speaker 2:And you get the book free. You get the book free, it's free. Yes, sir, money by the Book, but you get it free. That's me.
Speaker 1:Get it free, that's right.
Speaker 4:Yep. Oh, oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1:So there it is, chris. Chris is bringing the check. Nettie, he didn't just, he didn't just bring us conversation, but he brought us.
Speaker 2:And he comes with his check right.
Speaker 4:Yeah absolutely I come with my check. Absolutely I managed other people's money, you know.
Speaker 1:I knew that was Chris has been. It's been incredible man, an incredible privilege and an incredible honor to sit with you, to glean from your wealth of wisdom pun intended and to learn from you today, and we thank you so much for what you're doing and what God has you embarking on, and we pray his many blessings over you and your family. Brother, thank you.
Speaker 4:Appreciate you guys, take care.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. On behalf of myself, brian Crawford, with my good and incredible friends, austin Hoyle, nettie Winters, we're signing off saying God bless, god bless, thanks for joining, living Reconciled. If you would like more information on how you can be a part of the ongoing work of helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured, please visit us online at missionmississippiorg or call us at 601-353-6477. Thanks again for listening. Thank you.
