Living Reconciled
Living Reconciled, hosted by Mission Mississippi, is a podcast dedicated to exploring reconciliation and the Gospel that enables us to live it out. Mission Mississippi has been leading the way in racial reconciliation in Mississippi for 31 years. Our model is to bring people together to build relationships across racial lines so they can work together to better their communities. Our mission is to encourage and demonstrate grace in the Body of Christ across racial lines so that communities throughout Mississippi can see practical evidence of the gospel message.
Living Reconciled
EP. 64: Reconciliation in History and Education with Dr. Seth Parry
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Join us as Dr. Seth Parry, history professor at Belhaven University, shares his journey from Cleveland, Ohio, to Jackson, Mississippi, exploring how faith, history, and education intersect. From his early life in a predominantly white Methodist congregation to his work promoting diversity and racial reconciliation, Dr. Parry offers insights into fostering unity and embracing God’s creativity through meaningful relationships. Tune in for a heartfelt conversation about building bridges and transforming communities through faith and learning.
Hey, thanks so much for joining us on this episode of Living Reconciled. My name is Brian Crawford and I have the privilege of being your host on this great podcast. Unfortunately, my co-hosts and friends Nettie Winters and Austin Hoyle aren his time to share with us. Dr Perry is a professor of history at Belhaven University, specializing in European history. He is a published scholar contributing to very distinguished works like Oxford bibliographies on Italian humanists and all sorts of fancy things like that. He's an educator, of course, at Bell Haven and passionate about teaching and engaging students in meaningful conversations, and he loves informing that education and his expertise. With his faith, he has a very Christ-centered approach to education and we couldn't be more delighted to spend a little time with him. Dr Perry, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2:I'm doing very well. Brian, thank you for inviting me to this. I've listened to some of the podcasts you've recorded in the past and I'm humbled by all that those other brothers and sisters are doing for you so far and feel a privilege to be able to be a guest on this show.
Speaker 1:Excellent, excellent. Well, thank you so much again for the privilege and opportunity that we have to interview you. Before we dive too deeply, I always want to give a quick thanks and shout out to our sponsors, folks like Mississippi College and Anderson United Methodist Church, grace Temple Church, mississippi State University, real Christian Foundation, nissan, st Dominic's Hospital, atmos Energy Regions Foundation, brown Missionary Baptist Church, christian Life Church, and then our friends Ms Doris Powell, robert Ward and Ann Winters. Thanks so much for all of our sponsors who make this possible. It's because of what you do that we're able to do exactly what we do, and today what we're doing is interviewing Dr Seth Perry. Dr Perry, if you don't mind, let's start off by just sharing a little bit about your own personal story of faith, how you came to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ family and your work at Bell Haven.
Speaker 2:Sure, sure. So I was raised in a Christian household. My father was a minister of a really small Methodist congregation up in the suburbs of Cleveland Ohio. That congregation was small, made up of a bunch of elderly folks and maybe upper middle aged people, if you want to be more kind. My father's kids were really the only kids in that congregation and it was a pretty racially uniform white church as well.
Speaker 2:There were a handful of Chinese people that were in that church that had come here to avoid the persecution of the church at that point, but it was a predominantly white church in a very affluent area of southwest Cleveland area, which was an interesting perspective, because I don't know if things have changed a whole lot, but ministers don't always get the highest pay scales, and so we were living in this area where the people who lived there largely had higher salaries than my family. So it was an interesting experience. But it was a white area of Cleveland. I had a close personal friend who was, I think, the only Puerto Rican family in the area, and I'm sure he had it a little bit worse off than most of the rest of us because of that being pretty clearly a minority in that area. But I was raised by my father.
Speaker 2:I've been a Christian since as long as I can really remember, but it was a little odd being in the kind of congregation that I grew up in Sure. So I decided to go to a Christian college, probably because I wanted to sort of like commit myself to the Christian life and see what that was like, see what other Christians like my age were doing. And, if I'm being honest, I was also going there because I was interested in finding a Christian spouse. I dated throughout high school, but I don't think none of those girls were Christians. So I kind of wanted to see what that experience would be like.
Speaker 2:There's a joke, a trope, about girls going to Christian colleges to get their MRS degrees and I don't know, but I have to admit that was kind of one of the reasons I decided to go there as well. It was one of the attractions, if you will, of a Christian school, and going there was an interesting experience. I really enjoyed my years at that Christian school. I think anytime you're, for the first time, really inundated in a Christian experience, you get that mix of sincerity and hypocrisy in those areas, and so you had to work your way through seeing how people lived out of their Christian lives or didn't, as the case may be, but I don't think that's particularly unique.
Speaker 2:I went there with a particular idea as to what I was going to do and, after a semester of chemistry, decided that wasn't what I was going to do. I do have a distinct memory of sitting in my dorm room, and it must have been the spirit moving in me because I felt this need that I needed to dedicate myself to working towards the kingdom but at the same, time I.
Speaker 2:What were you majoring in prior to? I was pre-med, pre-med. I was a pre-med major, so that chemistry class taught me otherwise. From pre-med to history is an interesting leap. That's a leap of faith. Yeah, that's what that is. I had this moment, like I said, where I felt I really wanted to have some sort of ministry career, but I still don't really feel like I've got the disposition to be a minister. I really feel like the call is an important element to that. If you do something, even if you think it's God's will, if you don't have a call, it's not going to be successful. Do something, even if you think it's God's will, if you don't have a call it's not going to be successful.
Speaker 2:My father, as I mentioned, was a minister, my uncle's a minister, my younger brother was a minister, so I felt a little bit like the black sheep, but I wanted to dedicate myself to somehow building up his kingdom, and I knew it should have been obvious, since I was going to a Christian school. But it took me about a year and then I decided, you know, uh, that I want to pursue Christian higher education. I want to, I want to do what I was currently experiencing, and so that sophomore year, um, I, I committed myself to a history major, like you said. Uh, my grades substantially got better, maybe because I was following in, uh, the desire that God had for me. Um, my, my wife will tell me that she had a prominent role to play in that as well. I don't know if there's a connection, but I started dating the woman who would become my wife on the last semester of that freshman year. My GPA went up from that point forward, which isn't necessarily obvious, but she encouraged me to success, so that was good. It was while I was at that school that I also started attending the local Episcopal church, and I really appreciated the emphasis on liturgy and historical connection of the faith that we saw in that church, so I started attending that church. Since then I've moved from the Episcopal church to the Ang in that church, so I started attending that church. Since then I've moved from the Episcopal Church to the Anglican Church, and that's where I think you mentioned that in your intro a few moments ago but that's where I'm a member today of the Anglican Church. So, as I mentioned, I met the woman that I would marry freshman year, started dating her at the end of freshman year. We got married a couple months at the end of college. So I guess that was mission success as far as that goes, and we've been married for 21 years now going on that. So she's a native New Yorker.
Speaker 2:So in order to teach at the college level, you need a graduate degree. So I applied to go to schools in the New York City area so that she could go back to be close to her family, and so that's why I ended up going to Hunter College and the City University of New York and that's where I got my graduate degrees and I worked while I was teaching there. I'm sorry, I worked teaching at Brooklyn College while I was completing my degrees there, and so that was my first experience sort of teaching and really teaching a diverse group of students. The students at Brooklyn College were an interesting mix of mostly Jewish students and African-American students.
Speaker 2:It's right at the intersection of those two neighborhoods over there in Brooklyn. So that was my first real experience in a much more diverse setting than I'd had really up to that point, even in the place we lived in New York. I know the city is diverse as a whole, but neighborhoods weren't quite so much. So we moved to an area that was, you know, near her family and stuff, and we're living in a particular area while I was going into Manhattan to take my classes and to Brooklyn College to teach those young minds during those years.
Speaker 1:That's incredible. That's incredible. Tell me a little bit in terms of your journey to Belhaven. How did you get to Belhaven?
Speaker 2:Sure. Well, I completed my graduate degree at the City University in New York and my wife and I or my wife got pregnant at that point, and so we decided that this would be a good opportunity for me to rapidly finish up my graduate studies and actually start doing what I was anticipating doing. So that wasn't exactly the timeline we had been expecting up to that point. The academic hiring season is pretty set in stone. I was a little concerned because it was a little bit past the normal hiring period, but I went and searched for jobs at various places and I found a really small Christian school who was hiring a European history professor. One of their professors had been struggling with a health concern and thought he'd be able to teach the next year, but it informed the administration that really he didn't feel healthy enough to teach the next year, which left them in a bit of a bind, being told so late in the season that they had a vacancy. But it worked out perfectly for me, in God's providence and planning, that he had that position open for me. So I took that job at a Christian school in rural Georgia right on the Georgia-South Carolina border.
Speaker 2:I had told my wife I'd apply to jobs as far away as South Carolina. The fact that this was just across the border in Georgia, I guess she saw that was close enough. So that was where I got my first full-time position. I worked there for eight and a half years, teaching there and rising, getting promoted a couple of times. We can talk about my experiences there in a bit. But after about eight and a half years there I saw this posting for the position at Belhaven, which is in Jackson, mississippi, and when I first saw it I saw it as a great opportunity because it looked like a school that I could really enjoy teaching and working for and I like the fact that it's in an urban setting. Now Mississippi I had to be honest, never stepped foot in Mississippi. I hadn't even flown over Mississippi, to the best of my knowledge.
Speaker 1:Probably never placed urban in any sentence that you use with Mississippi either before then.
Speaker 2:Probably not. Yeah, it wasn't, that wasn't my conception, but you know, I thought my wife, as I said, was a New Yorker and living in rural Georgia was a strain on her. The place we lived had less than 2,500 people total in the community and I mean, I think there are more people than that on the block where we were in New York.
Speaker 1:She runs into more people, more people than LA Subway.
Speaker 2:Exactly so. I'm like you know let's. I came out here to Mississippi and interviewed for that and really kind of enjoyed the people that I met. The administration here at Belle Haven thought it was a real opportunity for us and I had cleared this with my wife ahead of time. So I don't want to make it sound like I was doing that, but you know we had a conversation saying you know, on the one hand it is a lot farther from family than anywhere we've been up to this point, but on the other hand there's more people there, it's a bit more urban, there's more than two restaurants. So I think that was one of the things that was a selling point for her. She really enjoys being around more people and the opportunities for our kids.
Speaker 2:I think we're much greater here in Mississippi than they were in rural Georgia. I think this actually connects up perhaps with one of the things we talk about here, you guys at Mission Mississippi because when we were in rural Georgia the place we're living was incredibly segregated. That town, I mean you could tell you, crossed the railroad tracks and that was the African-American side of town and the other side, the south side of the railroad tracks. I mean I thought that was a metaphor. But you came over there and you were on the white side of town.
Speaker 1:We're talking post-2000s at this point and still seeing, you know, that kind of incredible geographic segregation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it wasn't just. It wasn't just geographic. I mean, I know I can be naive because, as I said, I spent my life at this point in Ohio and New York. I've got family in Pennsylvania, so that's really my experiences. And I have this distinct memory I was driving with one of my colleagues who actually she's also from Ohio but had moved down to Georgia and married at George, and so she, I think, knew the culture better than I had and I made just some offhanded comment about I'm surprised that a town this relatively small has the need to have two of this and two of that. We were talking about funeral homes. I said I mean, how many people are dying in this town that you need to have two funeral homes? And she just looks at me and says, well, you know, seth, that's the black funeral home and that's the. I was like and I realize I'm being kind of naive with saying that but I never even crossed my mind, I mean, and so that was kind of an eye-opening experience, and I'm not trying to cast aspersions on the people, there are plenty of people who weren't seeing race in that way but it was an interesting experience living there.
Speaker 2:When we came to Mississippi. My wife and I made the decision we could have moved to a couple areas around town. We decided we wanted to sort of purposely move into one of the communities that was a bit more racially mixed, integrated, and so we moved into an area that had a much more even balance of white African-American families I wanted my kids to experience I didn't want them just to have that experience that it had in Georgia up to that point, and so far I think that's been a pretty successful experience. I hope so. I think so. One of the things that really makes my heart, heart, uh, happy a little bit.
Speaker 2:Um, I realized that the term and the phrase colorblind has some negative associations and I'm not trying to defend that term, uh, specifically, but two of my kids I've had conversations with about a friend of theirs or a kid they're playing with or talking with or competing against in a spelling bee or something. We were talking about him and later on we'd be driving down the street like oh, hey, that's so-and-so and it's a black child. And at no point in our conversation have they felt the need to distinguish between that's who it was. And I guarantee you my generation, if you were saying, hey, who are you talking to Just the first go-to, as I would identify who the person was by you know, by the color of their skin, and I I do appreciate the fact that my kids that's not their first, you know identifier necessarily when you're talking about the people that they're interacting with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's good and I appreciate you both, uh, having kind of speaking to that the sensitive, sensitive nature of the term because, you know, colorblind can't, can't, like you said, it can be some negative associations with it. But I think ultimately, really what it comes down to is that the ability to see beyond it. You know, it's not that you're seeing faster or even ignoring it, but it's the ability to see more than that right, and understand that there are so many different identities. Even in the class, for example, seth, that we have at Bell Haven. We talk a lot about this, we talk about overarching identities, and the reality is that you know, I'm a Black man, you're a white man, but that is only one element of our overarching identity.
Speaker 1:There are so many other pieces and parts that make us who we are fathers, sons, brothers, you know, sons of ministers and churchgoers and history majors, and you know there's all sorts of other pieces that make us who we are, and learning how to uncover some of those, you actually realize how much more you have in common versus, versus what you have, what you do not have in common, and so, yeah, I got great appreciation for also your, your commitment to diversify your, your, your living experience with your, with your children, because of course, we know that there's there's all sorts of studies that show us that we're sharper when we have experiences that are that are different than ours as normative for us, and so we're sharper intellectually because we're not in those silos that cause us to just be around people that look like us, think like us, act and talk and vote like us, and so we're sharper intellectually, but we're also sharper in terms of our empathy, in terms of our understanding of different experiences, and so I appreciate that an incredible amount.
Speaker 1:And speaking of which it actually leads me to Belhaven, because Belhaven is kind of nestled in one of these very diverse areas in the city of Jackson where you have this kind of diversity of both class, diversity of both ethnicity and culture. This, this, the kind of Belhaven district, is just this really really interesting fusion of all of these different things that are happening, you know, culinary and food and just a lot of different things, really interesting things going on, including on the campus itself, including on the campus itself, and so could you kind of talk a little bit about how the campus was at your arrival, versus the campus life today, in the context of diversity, in the context of culture, class, ethnicity. Could you talk a little bit about that and some of the lessons that you guys have learned as that shift has been happening?
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah Well, I'll address some of the components of that question.
Speaker 1:If there's any that I leave out, just remind me. It's just a conversation, so we can just keep going.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we got it. As I said, one of the things I have to admit, so I need to confess some of my own sins here. On occasion, when I first got here, one of the things I was concerned about and one of my colleagues, the American historian across the hall here, he's from Michigan, and so the one thing that I was a little worried about when I first got here was I'm kind of making this term up, but this sort of like carpetbagger mentality. You know in American history After the Civil War, those northern people who would come down to the south and try to take over the south and run things down here. And I didn't want to be One of these two White northerners Coming down to the south and saying, okay, you guys have been doing it wrong, we're going to teach you.
Speaker 2:We're going to fix it for you. Now, having said that, the more I think about it, I really think that was probably an excuse I was making for myself, to excuse myself from not having to address some of those things. So I hope I'm starting to come to get past that a little bit, because I am trying to become more engaged in these issues of race and racial reconciliation. I mean, you know, I didn't, none of us choose the time and place that God puts us in. So what we do is we take the opportunities that God gives us and we go with it in just trying to be as sensitive to, you know, our neighbors as he as as he possibly can. So, uh, with that sort of as um, as a background to what we were saying here, um, one of the first things that um, when we started talking about these issues, I wanted to do um which, uh, I know Nettie and Austin have been involved with from the beginning was having a specific class that would be open to incorporating some of these ideas in a Christian setting. I was made the Dean of Humanities and Ministry a couple of years ago and I've been trying to sort of incorporate that into all the academic areas in this school. You know, maybe not all at once, but sort of easing some of these ideas into this. And so just to sort of express that, at the outset we it was back in 2019, I guess that we began to offer this class called Studies it's very generically titled class um called studies. It's very generically titled, uh, on purpose, to allow the instructors to just take it and run with it. Um, studies in african-american history and culture. And, uh, I, I, I don't believe you were involved in the course at the first time. We offered it. But, um, that class, um, we started it in 2019.
Speaker 2:Um, and we had a.
Speaker 2:We had a fellow who was gonna be teaching that class and he got maybe three weeks into it and, uh, he suffered a bit of a health scare and a health concern and so he wasn't able to complete that class and, um, I mean, that was not his fault in any way. But we're sort of thinking, oh man, I don't know if this is an attack, because we're trying to reach out and now this fellow is getting struck down. I'm thinking in the back of my head we don't want to end the class halfway through and of all the classes, we don't want to end halfway. We don't want to end this. So I had a conversation with the provost about how can we get this class to keep going, even though we just you know, are running in these difficulties. And he said he you know, we talk about, we think about it. And he came back to me just a couple days later with this fantastic idea and a fantastic name um, and the name is meddy winters I'm pretty certain that the provost at the time was Dr Brad Smith.
Speaker 2:Yes, and so he's a friend of Mission Mississippi, but I'm pretty sure. Incredible friend. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's actually our mutual friend, his mutual friend and yours, dr Dolphus Weary, who is a board of trustees members here at Bellhaven, that I'm sure you know. Brad reached out and said help and Dr Weary said hey, you know, I got just the person who can you know solve your problem. So I met with Nettie and I met with Dr Felicia Bowens.
Speaker 2:That day I was sitting across the desk from them and saying, hey, you guys are my substitute teachers. I don't, I don't know you yet, but I've heard great things, I'm sure you can do this. And um, we, we sort of hashed out how we were going to finish that class and I kid you, not the next week COVID hit and we went remote. So, wow, I mean, every university across this country was trying to figure out. We had just reached out and found these instructors, the Mission Mississippi folks, who were going to be helping us out with that, and they had to scramble and figure it out. I don't know the balance of work that was done, but they figured that class out, they taught that class out, and I don't know how they got it to work. And I don't really remember whether Austin was involved in the class in that iteration, whether he came on not at that iteration.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it was the next time around that I did it. But, um, I mean, that class was that class was a hit. Students um, really enjoyed it on I. I met with a bunch of them afterwards just saying, hey, you know, guys, I'm sorry about the difficulties we've run into here. Um, we made this commitment to offer this class to you guys wanting to be a good experience. You can do it and they, you know they they seem to appreciate you know we did what we could to keep the class going and that they liked the difference in personalities that was offered in those in those classes. And and that just began couple of times here we've expanded it to include a more substantial portion of our Mission Mississippi family.
Speaker 1:I know you're involved in that class and Austin is involved in that class on occasion, it's so fun, man, dr Perry, it's so fun just sitting in there, if nothing else, just sitting in and just listening to the students as light bulbs come on about African-American history and stories and the journey of theology, and it's just fun listening and watching and observing light bulbs come on. So we're incredibly grateful that we get a chance to participate as an organization and incredibly grateful, of course, like I mentioned, would have loved to have Nettie on this podcast today, but he's incredibly grateful that we've been extended the opportunity to participate in it. So it was an incredible commitment from you to make it happen but, man, we couldn't be more thankful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean Nettie's not on here, so you, I'm not sucking up to him, but he is one of the more, you know, charismatic people I've ever encountered. I mean, you, it's hard to spend time uh with him and not leave that experience with your heart buoyed um a little bit about the future, uh, for us. And so I mean I know you guys are doing some great instructional things in that class, but, uh, you know, I joke with people that if all they do is sit there and just listen uh to you guys and Nettie, you know, show uh Christian love to each other, um, and those students, I mean that that's an experience that they're going to remember and take away with them, uh, and that that's a successful class. That's a successful experience from my perspective. It's kind of funny.
Speaker 2:Whenever I talk about this class I'll go out to a couple professors' occasion and say, hey, you know, if you know anybody that needs a class, this is a great opportunity from them. And I'd say about half the time the person I go to says, oh man, I wish I could sit in their class. I know I've met Nettie a couple of times, or I've met Austin or whoever it may be, and they know, just from reputation, what you guys do, so that's something I hear pretty frequently, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Tell me, if you could wave a magic wand, what's one thing you'd love to see Belle Haven keep building on as it relates to building this beautiful community, diverse community, people from different walks of life and all having this sense of belonging. If you could wave a magic wand, what would be the one thing you would love to see Bell Haven do more of in order to continue to cultivate and fortify this kind of community?
Speaker 2:Sure, I mean, I think this is just natural to a university or a community, but we're frequently siloed off into our majors, our areas, what we're focused on doing, whether they want us to do a job preparation program or a greater learning experience. So you know, this is not just tooting your guy's horn, but I think that a whole variety of majors and programs could really benefit from the kind of things. Take that class are doing it because they know who you guys are and they want to learn from you guys. Occasionally there might be a student there who just needs an extra three credits for this or three credits for that. A lot of our programs are so packed out with material that some of those students couldn't do that.
Speaker 2:I really think that, really, any major, think about any career that you're going to be entering into Um, and, frankly, as we talk about as a liberal arts college, it's not just the career you start. You're going to be moving from career to career. You're going to have different bosses, you're going to have different workspaces, you're going to have different colleagues. All they're going to be different. Um, it may be that they are all of the same ethnicity, but chances are, chances are not. I think all of us are going to have working with people of all shapes, sizes and varieties, and so you know, to be honest, I don't see why a business program shouldn't have even if it's not a course some sort of module or program that says, hey man, these are the kinds of things that you are going to encounter in the workplace, and it might be a racial issue, it might be a gender issue, it might be a religion issue, but these are the kinds of strategies that we can pursue. You know, sort of talk our way through it. I mean, I think that's one of the fundamental things right of Mission Mississippi, that it's having conversations and building relationships with people who we right now don't see eye to eye with. And you know what? We may not see eye to eye even at the end of this conversation, but at least we can communicate with each other and that's a skill I mean you need that in every business or workplace you're going to be. You're going to need that in every education space you're going to be in. And I was thinking before we got on this call you know we've got a big nursing program here, and I mean nurses. They serve people across the racial divide, and so I would hope that most of our nurses are pretty open to that experience. But you know what having some training and encountering both patients, but also, you know, the families of patients and the bedside manner to approach in different circumstances. So, even if it's not a course, I can see some sort of training module or even as a weekend experience of some sort. I think that'd be something that we could incorporate across, you know, across the campus.
Speaker 2:I happen to look at the Belhaven mission statement, you know, because we always try to tie things into our mission, and Belhaven's mission is to prepare students to serve Christ Jesus in their careers, relationships and ideas, and like what we're talking about, we're talking about relationship building. All of our relationships aren't going to be with people who look and smell like us, so that's something we need to do. And ideas, too, I mean we can smile and smell like us, so that's something, that's something we need to. And ideas, too, I mean we can, we can smile and pretend like we're getting along, but if our ideas are blocking us, that's not good. We need to get past that. We need to, we need to understand these things.
Speaker 2:So and I mean careers, I think, also goes, I think all three of those components really fit in here. So I think that would be saying, if I had my magic wand, I would. I would really enjoy seeing that happen. And it's not that we have a roadblock to doing that, I think it's just the mentality that we have. And it's pretty common in higher ed that we've got our certain classes and we've got it set up here and we don't have a whole lot of space for other things.
Speaker 1:So we need to have. It's incredible that you're mentioning it, dr Perry, because we've had Dr John Anderson, who's the dean of the School of Law at Mississippi College, on. He's an incredible friend of Mission Mississippi as well. But one of the things that we incorporated in the School of Law, the 1L and the 2L students. They each get a 90-minute to two-hour seminar, if you will, that we call Cultivating Healthy Relationships Across Dividing Lines. They get a part one and a part two.
Speaker 1:The 1L gets to part one where we cover the first two paradigm shifts, which is moving from hearing, the listening and moving from arrogance to humility.
Speaker 1:And then the second year students get the next two paradigm shifts, which is moving from apathy to empathy and moving from moral force to moral persuasion, where your conversations around morality is more, is more of a dialogue versus a silencing of voices, a pushing and shoving for for the moral opinions of the day, for the moral opinions of the day.
Speaker 1:And so it's very much in line with that intent that you, that you were articulating, which is this desire to give this kind of skill set what we call, or what I like to call, relational fluency, this relational capacity and fluency, the ability to navigate through, getting along with people of all different backgrounds, shapes, sizes, experiences, cultures, and so it's very much, like you said, a need for all walks of life, not just your theology majors, sociology majors, history majors, but people from all backgrounds need this kind of exposure and need need this kind of training. It's almost like a lost art, so to speak, in our cultural moment, and so, yeah, I appreciate you even articulating that and sharing that. It just reaffirms that we're in the right space, doing the right thing. To hear you say that, if I could wave a magic wand, that's what I would do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, aptitude, empathy.
Speaker 1:You don't have to wave a magic wand. So let me ask you this Again getting back to your history roots you've obviously seen or you've read and you've studied a lot to just share. Are there lessons from history, as you read and as you study, that can help us navigate and even figure out some of today's challenges that we experience? Of course, I know the American story is a little different from the European story and the American history is a little bit different from European history, but at the same time, European history, I'm sure there are stories of conflict. I'm sure there are stories in which people pursued healing through conflict or healing over that conflict. So are there any lessons that we can take from history that would speak to our current moments and maybe even offer some hope as it relates to our current moments?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll see what I can do about that. I like to try to connect my understanding of history with my Christian faith right, so I try to figure out how I can do a theology of history and when I was thinking about some of these concepts about racial reconciliation, what we can do, working for this, is that, you know, historians really engage with the past, engage with foreign countries and we learn about all the manifold and different ways that God expresses his creativity through all the events of the past. And I think one of the ways that God shows his creativity in his workings through the past is that it was his choice to make us a diverse group of people. I mean, god could have made us all looking identical, he could have made us looking all the same, but it's an expression of his will for us to be a diverse people. I think it's an expression of God's image in us in diversity, of God's image in us in diversity. God cannot be expressed in just one white guy, one black guy, you know, whatever it may be. And so I think that sometimes we tend to make God into our image rather than seeing that we are made in God's image. Right, we tend to think of God as being kind of like us. So I think that the study of history one of the things it can do is it can really displace our assumptions about what reality is by showing us just how, you know, odd and unsettling our current circumstances are that we are just, you know, one moment in this timeline continuing. I think that understanding the past and understanding all the ways that God has worked his will through events and experiences, hopefully will give us a wider expression of how he's trying to carry out his will through his people.
Speaker 2:As I said, I think of the mosaic of humanity, so the range of different people that God made. That's how God represents himself to us. Now, I know I don't want to walk in any heresy, I know that Jesus was born in his human nature, he had ethnicity as a human person, but that's not, you know, that's not what I'm talking about, god in general, that his image is our multiple racial identities. I was thinking about this phrase and I think that in order to really understand God, we need to understand the diversity of humanity. Why did he choose to um, why did he choose this, this path? And well, I don't think we can ever really, you know, fully understand God this side, uh, you know this side, this side of heaven.
Speaker 2:I think that understand that he wants us to um, have all of these different appointments. I think the same thing is probably the case, um, with all the um, multiple, the multiplication of denominations. Sometimes I think that one denomination will focus on this aspect of God. I think, like a diamond, right One facet. This reveals this element to God. This facet reveals another element to God. I think the same thing is the case with cultures. So I think that deeply studying European history, south American history, african history, whatever it may be, that reveals something about the way that God works his way through people. It's not going to be the same story how God wants us to act towards building up his multi-dimensional no-transcript, man.
Speaker 1:that's a great way to tackle it. So thank you for taking a really, really healthy stab. I appreciate it, man. It was well worth it and this interview has been well worth it. So thank you for just your time and helping us navigate reconciliation from a university perspective, which has been really, really intriguing and really, really interesting. If you could give one piece of advice to anyone, whether it be a student, parent, community leader, on how to build bridges and foster unity, just from your vantage point, what would it be? What would be that one piece of advice?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I guess my best piece of advice would be just to get started one person at a time. I guess my best advice would be just to get started one person at a time. I mentioned earlier on this conversation. You know I had excuses for myself for why my voice might not be heard, because I had this self-perceived outsider status. But you know what? You can't let that hold you back. So, even though I like grand initiatives, it really starts one person at a time right. So you reach out to one person, you form that bond, you form that relationship, you learn about that person, you learn about all the ways that they are similar to you and different than you.
Speaker 2:The one thing I failed to mention in my earlier comment I talked about all this diversity, but, man, I can't believe I forgot to mention unity. Earlier comment, I talked about all this diversity, but, man, I can't believe I forgot to mention unity. We need to celebrate diversity. We need to celebrate unity too. You and I are brothers in Christ. We have that in common, and so while in my classes and in the lessons that we do, we talk about all the variety of things that God has done and that people have done. We also worship the same God, right, we have the same Savior, and so that common tie, that's one of the ways that I feel confident, you know, reaching out to my brothers and sisters, regardless of you know where they're coming from or where they go, we have that in common and so, even if I can't think of any other way to start a conversation with somebody, that's a place to get started, particularly in the South, where we've got, if nothing else, we've got, cultural Christianity right, and so that's a place where we can get started.
Speaker 2:Most people, at least in the spheres that I circulate in, most people at least, want to admit to not going to church. So that's at least a place you can start by saying, hey, you know, let's see where that is. And you know it stacks up, you know, like Lego blocks or like Jenga pieces. I think that that would be where it was. Don't let the you know, when you hear about problems, you might be overwhelmed and you might let it get you down because you're not going to be able to tackle it. I mean, I can't tackle it. You can't tackle it.
Speaker 2:We talked about Nettie's superhero status. He can't tackle it. You got to do it one piece at a time and then you build up sort of a web of relationships and community and then the two of you can work together and, as scripture says right, the two people working together is a tie that can't be unbound. So that would be my advice Don't let the enormity or the perceived enormity of the task really discourage you from moving forward, but take it one step at a time and work towards building that one solid relationship, having a good relationship, a solid relationship, rather than just sort of tepid or inch-deep relationships with a bunch of people, I think, and that can really be a foundation to build this movement at Tapa.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great way to close out our time, doc, and I appreciate again your time and your counsel, your advice and the work that you're doing for the community of Jackson, but ultimately the state of Mississippi, belle Haven University. Is there any way that people can keep up with Dr Perry, any things that you're doing in which you want to inform people in terms of social media work, or do you want to just point them to Belle Haven University and encourage them to send their kids there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there you go. I've got my page on bellhaven university, but, my goodness, I do not have a single a social media site. I am uh, uh, I'm an historian, so I like old things, so sometimes I feel like I'm actually really old-fashioned. I have never got involved in that and uh, uh, maybe that's for good or for ill. But yeah, if you, if you need to reach out, my email address is there on bellhaven, uh, I'd love to talk to any of you, would like to have a deeper conversation with any things that I've talked about here, but that that is the best place. Yeah, definitely, I mean you, you heard you, you come to belhaven, you can, you can hear this kind of stuff and you can take a class taught by mission mississippi where else? That's great.
Speaker 1:So absolutely that. That right there is a great plug. And so, and why is that the least surprising thing of the day to hear that the historian has no social media pages?
Speaker 2:I had a Twitter, but it was still Twitter when I was on it, so that tells you how long ago it's been since I posted on that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dr Perry. Thank you so much again for joining us. Dr Perry, thank you so much again for joining us and for anybody that is listening. Please feel free to continue to subscribe, or feel free to subscribe to Living Reconciled podcast. You can do that by going to any podcast app and searching for Living Reconciled Mission, mississippi, and that should get you in contact with us. Feel free also to share this episode, but also the podcast, with friends and family members, and feel free to like this episode when you like it. It actually generates more traffic towards this podcast and we would love for you to be able to do that On behalf of my good friends and their apps. That he winners in Austin Hoyle and my guest and friend, dr Seth Perry my name is Brian Crawford signing off saying God bless.
