Living Reconciled
Living Reconciled
EP 58: Unity Through Wellness: Reconciliation, Leadership, and Community Impact with Drs. Ronnie and James Kent
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This episode we sit down for an INCREDIBLE conversation with Dr. Ronnie Kent and Dr. James Kent, Co-founders of Twelve:Thirty in Hattiesburg, Mississippi. Together, they offer invaluable insights into their ministry and its profound impact on their community.
We delve into the intersection of personal well-being and communal reconciliation through the lens of Christian faith. We also discuss practical ways listeners can support their pastors and community leaders.
We can't wait for you to hear this one!
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated to giving our communities practical evidence of the gospel message by helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured for us by living with grace across racial lines. Hey, thanks so much for joining us on this episode of Living Reconciled. My name is Brian Crawford and I serve as the host of this podcast, and I am with my good friend. It's a great honor to be with my good friend, because it's been a while since we had the good doctor, austin Hoyle, on this podcast. Austin, how are you doing, man?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm good, I just happened to be back, man. So yeah, I know just a lot's happened. You know we just had a lot of issues we needed to deal with. We moved, so moved from Jackson down to Columbia, so started a new church that I'm serving at, so I'm at a first UMC of Columbia, so excited about that change, and my wife's on leave now so she's just like full time hanging out with the kids, watching them, raising them, and I get to just focus on work and it's kind of nice. It's kind of nice to have that set up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome, man. We're so happy that number one you were able to make that transition with your family and obviously we're happy to have you back, man. So welcome back, thank you. I want to give a quick shout out to some sponsors, folks like Nissan, st Dominic's Hospital, atmos Energy Regions Foundation, brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, ms Doris Powell, mr Robert Warren and Ms Ann Winters. Thank you so much for everything that you do is because of what you do here at Mission Mississippi and on Living Reconciled is.
Speaker 1:We're having an interview with two incredible, incredible, amazing men Dr Roddy Kent and Dr James Kent. Dr Roddy Kent and Dr James Kent are director and co-director of 1230, an organization that they're going to be able to tell you a little bit about here in just a moment. They are also residents of Hattiesburg, mississippi, and they are affectionate, dedicated lovers of our Lord and Savior, jesus Christ, and so we couldn't be more excited to have these two gentlemen on our podcast today. Welcome, gentlemen. How are you guys doing? Been well, been well, excellent. Thanks for having us, thanks for having us Glad to have you guys, and thank you guys for taking our call. We appreciate that, and we want to start by just giving you the floor to take a couple of minutes and just tell us a little bit about yourself, your family and your stories of faith.
Speaker 3:Well, since I'm the old guy and I'm his dad, so I'll go ahead and jump in here Retired, reached. Well. My faith journey started at eight years of age in my kitchen in Quentin, mississippi, when my mom said you know, I think the reason you don't like going to church anymore is because you finally recognize that sin has separated you from God and all those stories you heard about Jesus and dying on the cross and being raised from the dead. You need to tell him that you believe that's true. And he did it. What was necessary for you to help be in his family? And so in that kitchen I prayed and received Jesus. So very meaningful event in my life changed everything. Of course, as an eight-year-old I wasn't riding motorcycles and doing some heavy drugs or anything like that, so it wasn't very dramatic salvation experience to anybody, I don't think, but me. But it was very dramatic for me. So, and since that time I've been, I've been raised and and uh educated in mississippi. Uh went to mississippi state and got a degree in biological engineering, then went to medical school in Jackson, did my pediatric residency in Jackson and just recently, about two years ago retired from 42 years pediatric practice 41 years pediatric practice here in Hattiesburg the last 25 years dealing with helping folks with school problems At a clinic we started called Connections.
Speaker 3:I've been blessed to be married to Ann Brooks Kent for a long time 45 years, I think She'll get on to me if I don't do it pretty close, and blessed with three children, emily and James, in the middle and Grace. They are married to wonderful people and have given me 10 wonderful grandchildren, seven of which are boys, which definitely keeps you kind of hopping. Fortunately, they all live right around us and the oldest one is 14. The youngest two are six now. Yeah, six now. So they're all grouped together and very close, so we enjoy a good life. Six now, yeah, six now. So they're all grouped together and very close. And so we, we enjoy a good, a good life right now. We're members of Temple Baptist Church and been a member of Temple since we moved here 41 years ago, and so, um, and and I'm going to let James kind of talk more about himself and our, the 1230 ministry that yeah, james, tell us a little bit about yourself and the ministry 1230.
Speaker 4:Yes, um, first of all, thanks again. Uh, so my faith journey really started. I don't I don't have a recollection of a time without Jesus. Uh, I consider it a real blessing to have grown up in a family with mom and dad and church and lots of people at church who loved me and walked with me in faith, and I genuinely, I really resonate with something that Ruth Bell Graham, I believe, said she's quoted as saying I don't know when the light bulb came on, I just know it's on.
Speaker 4:In a similar situation, growing up as a missionary, I think she just didn't really understand life apart from Jesus. And obviously there was a point where I had to realize that I was in need of Jesus, not just that I loved him and he loved me. Sure that I was in need of Jesus, not just that I loved him and he loved me. And sure that happened around six, seven years old. And I've been walking with him ever since. And you know, like dad said, my childhood was really amazing, didn't face a ton of hardship, but God did use struggles with ADD and dyslexia for me really crucial in my struggle, and so obviously we're probably all familiar with how God tends to become realist when you really need something to cling on to, uh, when you really need something to cling onto. So, uh, those few things really played a significant role in uh me meeting Jesus, uh, growing closer to him, uh.
Speaker 4:And then I also went to Mississippi state, uh, and from there I waffled a little bit. Dad had a clear understanding of what he wanted to do, so, because I wasn't clear, I went back to school and did a master's in business administration at USM and, god really, he ordained a path for me into psychology, because I was in business and, through some significant events, found myself in the field of psychology. And so that led me to Wheaton College in Wheaton, illinois, outside of Chicago, and was really blessed to be able to go there and wanted to be somewhere that focused on the integration of psychology and Christian faith. And so Wheaton is that place and is also accredited by the American Psychological Association, which was also important from there. And well, I should back up. I was married to my wife, jessica, before Wheaton. We had our first child my first year there. We actually had all of them before I graduated, which I'm not sure I'd recommend that. I've got four kids, and that's just. It's a lot to take on a doctorate and four kids.
Speaker 1:I was about to say you were in two types of school Right, right.
Speaker 4:I mean my wife. If I achieved a doctorate, she probably achieved three, because it was amazing. Just yeah, she's extraordinary. She is extraordinary, so we're real thankful for her, amen.
Speaker 4:So after that, basically made my way back home to be close to the family and really really out of heart for the south. To be honest, uh, one of the mission statements, uh, or goals of Wheaton College is to graduate people who will serve the underserved, and our entire state for the most part meets that in one way or two or three that they're underserved. So this population of folks and their wellness and again, mind, body, soul and strength is really important to both dad and myself and that really is what brings us into 1230. And he was in practice for 41 years and I was. I worked in clinical practice as a therapist for 10 or so years. He and a friend started a ministry, a parent organization, and he was over what was then called the faith. Dad was over the faith and wellness division and he thought it. Both of them thought it might be helpful to bring someone like me on board and obviously uh never saw this happening five, ten years ago. Um, but with what I studied, uh, it was very much relevant, not only to my heart and what I wanted to do, but, uh, it seemed like I could be helpful.
Speaker 4:So then dad and I became the faith and wellness division and since then we've gone through some. Well, we're really just trying to. We're getting our feet wet in this. We're a very new organization, so we've been through some rebranding and now we call ourselves 1230. And that's after the great commandment, when Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was and he responded with love. Guard god with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love neighbor itself. And that's mark 1230 and 31.
Speaker 1:So, um, that's us in a nutshell dr, dr ronnie, talk, talk to us a little bit about some of the things you guys are doing to highlight this needed and necessary work in 1230? What kind of activities, what kind of engagements, conferences, meetings, actions that you guys are engaged in as it relates to 1230?
Speaker 3:So we have to start back. We were like James was saying we were trying to decide I mean, you know, we had a pretty good idea what faith saying we were trying to decide. I mean, you know, we had a pretty good idea what faith was. But trying to help, trying to decide even ourselves on what the definition of wellness is. You know, I asked a whole lot of people and there were a lot of you know definitions, most of which used the word wellness in it. I told them that's not helping me, you know so. So we uh, we and shane are, but the guy who started this with me, good, super good friend of mine, and Steve Castile, went out to to Dallas to an American Association Christian Chancellor's conference about two years ago and two of the speakers there made made statements that just blew us away, and that is that 50 percent of pastors do not last 10 years and that 90 percent of pastors do not retire as a pastor. And I mean we just rocked us and you know, and tried to move our ministry into wellness, faith and that that affects your wellness in the church. We thought, well, you know, if the pastors aren't, well, it's going to be difficult for the church to move there, because you know what the pulpit does a lot of times is what is supported through the church. And so we started realizing how much or how great a need there was. And as we moved more into it, you know the need for pastoral wellness. And so that's where we've really been focused, a big part of what we do, and we've been fortunate enough to surround ourselves with some retired or retiring pastors that we depend on heavily to help us, to guide us into how to really make that happen. And also we've partnered with William Carey University, their Institute for Excellence, and they've really taken this on as a real ministry in that area.
Speaker 3:And so we have a pastor summit that's coming up September the 12th, that we're trying to get some key of all denominations, races, socioeconomic, they all together at William Carey on August the 12th to try to get some idea of are we doing the right thing? I mean, are we asking the right questions? Or you know we don't want to come up with a plan that's not applicable, you know. And so then that quote will come from. That is a pastor conference. The first one's about 25 of the leaders, and then we're hoping to have a pastor conference for about 125 pastors or leaders October the 10th and to try to move forward in the implementation of the plan that literally we are developing.
Speaker 3:So that's one aspect. We have another, a different one, of really working with one of our sponsors that's really helped us a lot financially and he's they Reef Holding that that has a lot of holdings in a lot of different states and it great, great Christian organization that really is unique in that they want to try to infuse Christianity or Christian values into all of their holdings and they have over 50,000 occupants of all these holdings apartments and vacation spots and 500 employees. And so we're working with them to try to do something that can can meet the needs that they see with all of their occupants.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dr Kent, one of the things that that's staggering to me, you mentioned that statistic with the 50% of pastors and then the 90% of pastors not finishing in ministry and then 50% not lasting 10 years. Was that what I heard? Yes, and it is staggering to me because, of course, that was a couple of years ago and I don't think that number is going down. I think maybe even you might see a slight bump in that if we were to do a similar survey in 24. Trend as it relates to in 2021, in the spring or in the spring of 2021, rather, 63 percent of pastors said they've never seriously considered leaving pastoral ministry. Currently, today, that number is 36 percent.
Speaker 1:And so you? So you went from two-thirds saying they never could seriously consider to only one-third saying they've never seriously considered. That's a radical dip in terms of just the current landscape and the state of play as it relates to pastoral labor, pastoral ministry, and the weight and the demands and obviously the need that there is for a pursuit of wellness and healthiness in that particular area of ministry. And so what you guys are doing is incredible work. Let me ask you this Well, let me stop and pause, because Austin may be chomping at the bits and he may have some thoughts as well, so let me let him jump in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess most of the questions I have have to go around how you guys understand well-being, holistic well-being, because I love the idea of bringing together pastors, because we do kind of have that unique perspective into how humans operate. Oftentimes you know where we know how to navigate the ICU just as well as we know how to navigate funeral businesses, just as we know how to navigate well, just about any other sector. So I think it's really interesting that you're bringing together some pastors, and I like the Mark 1230 because that's such a holistic view of that. So how, how do you then see, kind of like our, our physical bodies, our, our minds, our, our, our spirits, uh, kind of melding into this like holistic vision, like what's some of the? Uh, some of like the, the, the root, um, the root premises that you guys hold when you're approaching this understanding of wellbeing with, like the, the, the full, full person perspective?
Speaker 3:So I'm going to jump in just for the medical cup and then I'm going to let James do the majority of that. But you know, the health care system has really let us all down and I was a part of that. As far as wellness, you know, 90 percent of the chronic illnesses that are treated in the United States today are affected by lifestyle, and so we do not. When I went into practice just a real, real, specific illustration of that is when I was trained in pediatrics by pediatric residency I didn't get one single mention of type 2 diabetes in adolescents, I mean, or in children, because it was non-existent. And now 30% of the adolescents in the United States are either type 2 diabetes or pre-diabetic 40% and so we are not doing a good job.
Speaker 3:As far as wellness, physically, and to separate heart physically and to separate heart, soul, mind and strength into compartments is impossible. It's a continual and each one affects the other. But I was talking to somebody yesterday that well, the pastors were invited to our conference that said that he was talking to counseling somebody about depression and he said, well, how much sleep do you get? And they said about four to six hours a night and he said you're not depressed, you're sleep deprived and the american diet is super ultra processed food. That is not good for you.
Speaker 3:I mean, I could spend the whole rest of the time just talking about the, the, the health aspect. If you walk 7,000 steps a day, you decrease your chances of mortality of any form of morbidity by 50%, and yet 92.3% of Americans get no significant exercise every day 92.3%. So you know, I know that's so quote unspiritual thinking about the physical aspect. But if Jesus didn't think it was important, he would have never added strength into how we are able to love God. And so I think that we have and James speaks to this much better than I do how the church used to be responsible for what might be considered some care, the total person. We've let go of that, so I'm going to be quite late him to take care of the other three aspects.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so um, pastoral ministry, formerly, really before the uh, enlightenment and and Industrial Revolution, pastoral care was really your one-stop shop when it came to especially mental health and, for that matter, a lot of health care. I think it was John Wesley who published a book that he in the book it was practical medical advice and he even talked about epidemiology before we had that term and he would hand out these pamphlets with remedies for common illnesses using household items. And then there's guys like Richard Baxter, who was a reformed theologian, you know, several hundred years ago he had volumes and volumes of case studies that he collected over years and that was it was simply him trying to track how he could best help people's illnesses, and not necessarily even, I'm sure, he mentioned spiritual components, but he was trying to help them have better physical, biological, relational health, and so that that's really inspiring to me as I studied those things in school, and just this idea that especially when psychiatry came along, unfortunately two things happened. It was really trying to get its foothold in science and at the same time, I think, the church was struggling with all the need, and so the church, I think, in some ways willingly let psychiatry have some of that area and again, not blaming anyone, but there was just such a significant need. So I really feel like, honestly, the church is still the best solution we have in partnerships with science and medical professionals who love Jesus and are called according to His purposes, and so that, to me, is maybe an approach to wellness.
Speaker 4:The definition outside of Mark 12, 30, and 31, the way that I was trained to look at it was to think I use what is called a self-care wheel, and it talks about seven domains of functioning and those are sleep, diet, exercise, spirituality, social support, avoiding substances, and then how you deal with relaxation or stress relief, and, and so I find it's a very basic tool because I have a little it's a little pie chart and when I put it up you can ask him, there's just this overwhelming response and I think that I tend to assume that people that that's common sense, but for some reason, seeing it all together on this pie chart really connects with people and breaks it down in a simple way, because you can easily say, oh, yeah, I, I don't sleep very well and it's a clear target area that they you know in therapy.
Speaker 4:Then I would say, okay, well, let's come up with a plan, because obviously that's something that you have some control over, we can work on, and now we'll bring your whole wheel into better balance, if we can do that. So spirituality is only one component. Obviously, we all would agree that, because we all think in a temporal way, we think in an eternal way that it's the most important one. However, we think that Jesus moved people towards wellness. He didn't just preach and teach, he also healed, and that was just a very visible and material way that he could demonstrate that he came to help. He came to help you physically, but that was a metaphor for how he could help you spiritually. And so, yeah, I don't want to ramble, but that, hopefully that answers the point here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it helps, and it was. It was John Wesley's primitive physic that he wrote and yeah, yeah, so he Pretty much what he did is he took All the best medical Knowledge of the day, stole it, plagiarized it, summarized it, put it Into a book that could be printed and just given to everybody, because he, he realized, hey, people just have this knowledge, even if they don't have any other training. They just have the knowledge that's in this book. You have people within villages that have this knowledge. People's lives just increase across the spectrum, so their bodies will increase, their minds will increase, their spirituality will increase, their capacity to connect with others will increase. Their capacity to connect with others will increase.
Speaker 2:So that's and that was, you know, in large ways that was kind of a movement, especially in England, that began to have, you know, education and hospital, to kind of focus on the full person. I think it's interesting, like when did psychiatry as a field uh rise? Is that mostly kind of late night? Or yeah, late 19th century, early 20th, kind of, with uh, jung and freud and what it became like a solidified, standalone field? Is that that more or less right?
Speaker 4:or I would say, standalone field would be more in, uh, you know, 20s, 30s, 40s, um, okay so, but of course they were doing things, having ideas, uh, before that in the 19th century. But yeah, you're, you're spot on.
Speaker 2:But the theories go ahead, go ahead, okay oh no.
Speaker 1:So no, brian, continue. No, I will say I'm fascinated by, by the self-care wheel. I mean, as soon as soon as you mentioned it, I went out quickly and just Googled self-care wheel and it's fascinating to think about the interwovenness. But, like you said, as soon as you see it it makes perfect sense. No-transcript. And yet we tend to live in these lives that detaches it all one from another, and so I appreciate the work that you guys are doing. You talked about aha moments. I'm curious what other aha moments do you have with laymen and women and leaders when you're sitting down and you're having these conversations? You mentioned the self-care wheel. Are there some other things that really just blow people's mind as to? Why did I not think of this before? This is so obvious and yet I've never put it together until today?
Speaker 4:I can speak to one that comes to mind. We're actually we've been working on a book that should be coming out in the spring called Anxiety Algorithm, and in that we use Philippians, and in particular Philippians 4 and whatever's true, right, noble, pure, lovely, admirable, excellent, praiseworthy. Think about these things, put them into practice and that, of course, ushers you into not just God's peace but the God of peace. And so we attach that to evidence-based treatments in psychology that can help you in the moment with anxiety and stress. But rooted in scripture. And during that class I think this was a real aha moment Again.
Speaker 4:As clinicians, you're taught not to assume things. It's very difficult sometimes to see your presuppositions, but people tend to help you with that. They expose what you're assuming if you let them. And we had a young mom who one day dad was just talking about his own journey and how he would have to go into his bathroom at work and recite scripture and pray out loud and work on these same things over and over, and she didn't even raise her hand, she just blurted it out. You mean, it's not supposed to work the first time. And we kind of took that and really thought about it. It was just such a genuine moment, but when we explained it?
Speaker 4:No, this is, you know, one of my favorite quotes is a quote by Dallas Willard, and he said that God's grace is opposed to earning but not effort. And so this idea and it's a mantra that we have, and that is that practice makes progress but Jesus makes perfect, and of course, you see that references in Hebrews 12 as the author and perfecter of faith, and so we get that a lot, because we find that we have to focus on the area of shame a lot, and, of course, when you talk about shame, you're going to talk about a performance-based mentality. Going to talk about a performance-based mentality, and we tend to be so performance-oriented that helping people understand that the area of effort that we most want to encourage you to engage in for wellness is relationship in Jesus. It's all about the relationship. Your effort goes there and then he will, in turn, help you become all that he's called you to be.
Speaker 4:And so really trying to break down that barrier in people's mind between shame and performance and Jesus is, I think, a real aha moment. For some reason, christians a lot of times might be able to define grace and mercy, but it's different than actually operationalizing it in your life. What does that look like? And so, again, not that we are smart or anything, it's just that need has come up, and so we've we've really tried to push back on that idea and just expose shame.
Speaker 3:Well, I think that's so true. I mean there's you know James brought this in as we were teaching that class and it was an aha moment for me personally, as the human function curve. That's something else you can look up, brian, but the human function curve is so important for people to appreciate that. You know there's two. I'm a big mindset person. There's two mindsets a growth mindset and the stress can be enhancing mindset that are so rooted in Scripture. I mean they've been around for 2000 years since Jesus. He's a very growth mindset.
Speaker 3:You know Paul said not that I've actually become, but I press on toward the high calling in Christ Jesus, and then that that that means that a lot of people think it's amazing. I call it Old Testament Christianity. They think that you know I become a Christian and then I'm supposed to. Just it's automatic. I mean my Christianity is just automatic, I don't really have to do anything. You know I've talked to so many people and you know, as you get older, people think you get wiser. What a foolish thing that is.
Speaker 3:But anyway, with marriage problems would come to my wife and and I. They'd sit down and say we've got, and I'd say, okay, I'm gonna ask you what? The first, first question. I'd tell them my salvation story and then I ask them there's their how they came to know jesus. And about 25 of the time they didn't have a relationship with jesus. And I told them, said it's real hard to have a Christian marriage if you're not a Christian. And so you know. Fortunately, quite a few during that encounter came to know Jesus personally and Ben, that will really affect your marriage. I mean, if they did have a relationship with Jesus, I would say, okay, I just want you to answer me one question. The first question was just a number. Okay, how many times last week did you read your Bible? And and they would try it. Well, you know, I said no, no, no, I just want to know, and it's almost a hundred percent of the time. Guess what? The number was zero, zero. I would say you know where you want to end up, but you don't know how to get there and never, looking at the map, you're going to wander around, you're going to find yourself in the wilderness. A lot of times You're going to be frustrated. Read the book and it's amazing to me how many problems, not just carte blanche, but how many problems in the Christian life, get a lot better if you read the book. And so helping people develop the basics of a walk with Jesus, you know, by reading the book and by talking to him, is amazing.
Speaker 3:And this human function curve helps. You see that stress is a necessary part of life. Without stress you don't do anything. I'm not stressed to provide for my family, I don't really want to go out and work because we all settle to the lowest effort that we can use most of the time, so that stress moves us up into being able to function. But then we get into that area where we perform the best.
Speaker 3:The stress is causing us to form at a level and then if you go over what we call the hump, if you go over the hump and your stress increases, your performance actually goes down after that Mission retires. At that point that's right. And so you get to the place where you burn out and you quit. Like we are dealing with these pastors that we're trying to help because their job, the stress in the job all of us encounter stress. But we have come to appreciate the fact that pastors encounter like you were kind of alluding to Austin a different kind of stress, a different kind of environment that Jesus doesn't put a performance aspect of it, but everybody else in their church does, and so trying to help them negotiate. That, I think, is connected, that initial aha moment, but it's so real.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dr Kent. Dr Kent, I'm fascinated by this dialogue for a lot of different reasons. I mean even uh, you know I was as you, as you were speaking about this kind of connection between, um, you know, rehearsing the truths of God over and over and over again, and how that has a impact on our emotional state and our physical state. You know one of the things that I recall, um, just earlier this year, preaching through minor prophets and talking about the book of Habakkuk and Habakkuk, one of the things that the prophet says in chapter three, verse two, he mentions this idea that he, oh Lord, I have heard the report of you and your work and of course, habakkuk is in the middle of this kind of devastating situation. He's looking around, wondering where is God in the midst of all this devastation, in the midst of all this destruction? And he has this kind of rebound moment in chapter three. But it starts. That rebound moment starts by simply saying I have heard the report of you and your work, and so it's a reflective remembrance that leads to that kind of Philippians four that you mentioned.
Speaker 1:James, where whatsoever is good and righteous is of noble report, and the peace of God chases that you know, as we settle in on the goodness of God and remember his grace, remember his mercy and begin to thank him for it. They remember his grace, remember his mercy and begin to thank him for it. You know because, interesting enough, you know one other a 35 percent reduction in depressive symptoms. Just one act of gratitude, and so and so, just what I find in my own life is that when I drill into and drill into the state of my own soul oftentimes, and I begin to think about where it is, depending on where my gratitude is, can often be a really good indicator as to where everything else is as it relates to my depressive state or my anxious state or my worrying and all these different types of things. It ties back oftentimes to how well am I remembering?
Speaker 1:And so and so I just, I'm, like I said, I am so fascinated and so encouraged by what you guys are doing. It's incredible work. Let me, let me turn the turn the question, or turn the conversation in a different way, quickly, while we still have you for a few minutes. And actually this how do you believe your work is intersecting with the work of Mission Mississippi? Because we're about reconciliation and pursuing this realized reconciliation that we already have in Jesus, but enjoying it in a real way in our local churches and in our communities. How can the work that you guys are doing in our local churches and in our communities, how can the work that you guys are doing, how can that aid us and help us? If we're laypersons or if we're leaders and pastors in our local communities, how can this work help us in the work of unity?
Speaker 3:Okay, you know I always jump in first. He finishes, he polishes my crude comment. You know I now use a term that's not a real classy term. But the weller you are, the more you meet other people's needs, the more you're concerned about your relationships with other people. That's why God said you know, love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself, which involves not only loving God but loving yourself and then loving your neighbor.
Speaker 3:And so as we help hopefully, you know, I mean we have to deal with it ourselves. I mean we're not sitting up here because we got it all right. So we have to be careful that the number one thing pride or whatever gets in the way of us trying to be used by God, the number one thing old pride or whatever gets in the way of us trying to be used by God. But the the more we're able to realize how much God loves us and how much he wants us to be well and, like James said, become all that he's had in mind for us to be, with confidence and joy, then we want other people to get that too. We want other people to be like that, and it doesn't matter if you're a member of my church, if you're a member of my community or it doesn't matter.
Speaker 3:You, just as God flows through you, you know and produces that fruit as you abide in him. That's what Jesus said abide and you will produce fruit. It's not like you might, but you'll produce love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, that fruit of his spirit that comes out in you. You just naturally want to go in and love other people, which will move you into the great commission to go and make this life. So it's just such a simple plan that Jesus has just laid out for us. It really is.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean everything that Dad just said. Part of it for me is just recognizing again that there's a higher calling, not necessarily that we perform as Christians, but there's a higher calling that can be achieved through the Holy Spirit. The world is not capable of reaching, isn't? The world is not capable of reaching? And for our environments, and I mean, you know, I think we could say across the world, these divisions that exist are just opportunity, and I think in that sense, it's an opportunity for God to be glorified, for us to be set apart as brothers and sisters in Christ and to celebrate difference also, to celebrate the unique things about. I mean, you know, it's like if God created all flowers the same color, that would be fine, they would still be beautiful, but I tend to prefer all the colors. I like the uniqueness of the difference, and so I think it's just to me a real opportunity for the Holy Spirit to do something very special that can't be achieved, achieved without him, and it's beautiful. And so I really I'm a bit of an idealist and so there's a deep sense in me of just wanting to be able to experience that somewhat for the wow factor, just so that I can offer praise and say that that's our god, that's how cool he is and that's that's what he really wants from us. So how do you do that?
Speaker 4:I think obviously it's a big question, but I do think that healthy people uh, tend to pursue healthy things and so, as far as what we do and how it intersects with what you all are doing, it's both.
Speaker 4:And you know, the healthier people can be, I think, the more open they are to things like forgiveness, which is super healthy, and reconciliation, which is super healthy, and turning the other cheek, because everybody's been hurt and everyone has a story. So the greater God is to you, the less important those hurts are or the injuries that you carry, and the healthier you are, I think, the more open you are to. It's not about me, you know. I tell people sometimes one of the hardest parts about things like anxiety and depression is they're very self-consuming and from the outside perspective it makes you look really selfish. But it's mostly because you're just consumed in your own mind with anxious thoughts and in your body feelings, and so it's not that you're selfish, it's just that if I have a gaping wound, it's hard for me to reach out and offer help to the person next to me. So in that sense, the healthier we can be, I think, the more available we are to be helpful for others.
Speaker 2:And I really like this, loved your answer to the whole root of reconciliation that the healthier we are, the more we can be for others. You know that's going with Jesus' sentiment of saying look at the plank in your own eye before you look at the speck in others. It's not that there's actually a speck in another person's eye and you're the only one walking around with a plank. It's like no, we all have planks eye and you're the only one walking around with a plank. It's like no, we all have planks. Just when we look at someone else, we get annoyed more about their spec because we don't see their spec as a plank Then and we just ignore our own massive plank.
Speaker 2:I also look at this and I'm a. My PhD is in philosophy, so I always look at things from a philosophical perspective and what you guys are pinpointing at could also be seen as a massive problem that we have within our culture. I'm thinking particularly CS Lewis's abolition of men, men without chests, that whole concept which I'm sure you guys are I'm guessing y'all are fairly well aware of. Cs Lewis and that whole concept which I'm sure, uh, you guys are, are pro I'm I'm I'm guessing y'all are fairly well aware of of CS Lewis and that whole concept and and what abolition of man uh pinpoints is that, um, you know the, the, the root problem of modernity is that we, the, they've bifurcated all the, the, the, the, the physical, physical body, the emotional, psychological well-being, the spiritual well-being you know our strength, all of these different things that should be rolled up to make us, uh, you know, holistically uh, strong and and healthy. We've, we've bifurcated those things put them in different.
Speaker 1:Put them in. Yeah, people are our regular listeners out there, exactly.
Speaker 2:They don't have conversations and converse with one another. So we've become individuals who are incongruent with our individual selves, not even with the rest of society, but we're incongruent with ourselves to a degree of society. But we're incongruent with ourselves to a degree, and what I see, the major impact that y'all can offer is because us pastors are going to maybe look at this and say, well, we have cultural influences that are causing us to be at odds with ourselves in this regard. We're at odds with our hopes because oftentimes we fill the God-sized holes that we have with things of this world and we have a culture that praises that and that encourages that. So us pastors can point this out.
Speaker 2:But the real benefit that, drs Kent's I'm just going to add the S for both Drs and Kents, the Drs Kent's that y'all can offer is that that, that, that that kind of that, that precision, that that's uh scalpel, so to speak, with uh, your, your capacity to diagnose and your capacity to find solutions, um, on a more scientific level, um, which I can tell you already have the, the, the theological depth, the philosophical depth to under, uh, to understand, uh, the cultural problems that are, that are breaching into this as well, and just the solution, you know, and your name Mark, 12, 30, 31 is leading with, the solution to what our problem is, which is individual persons who have become so divided within ourselves that we can't even you know, we almost can't even have conversation.
Speaker 2:Like you know, like we have that lack of confidence. You know, when you talk to somebody and you can tell that they don't even believe the words behind their own, that their own voice is saying out, that's what I mean is somebody who is at odds with themselves. Is that they're not, they don't have confidence in their own words. And we've produced well, we've produced communities full of persons like that and I feel like your effort can help on a spiritual and theological level, can help to correct that path.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm reminded in such clear terms in this conversation of a quote that I've heard shared on many occasions from many different people, and that's you cannot give what you do not have. And there are oftentimes that we're trying to um, as leaders, um, oftentimes trying to pour into people, uh, when, when we ourselves are empty and and, and it impacts. It impacts everybody. It impacts those that's receiving that pouring, but it also impacts the one that's doing the pouring when they're pouring from empty spaces and places, and so this has been incredible. Can I ask one more question of you, gentlemen, before we part ways? And that's this for the average lay person that may be listening to this and thinking about how they can come alongside their pastors, their community leaders and those that have been entrusted to lead them in some shape, form or fashion. What can they do? What encouragement can they offer? What aid, what support, what wisdom? If you have one thing to give them, what would you give them to help them in serving those that are leading them become better versions of themselves?
Speaker 3:Well, I brought this up in my Bible Fellowship class Sunday, and that is when you see a pastor in the hall, tell them two things. Tell them one thing and ask them one thing. That is, I'm praying for you and what can I do to help. You know, oftentimes we go to pastors to get something and so you know if, if, if you can go, come alongside your pastor and I said that, don't be shocked, they may ask, actually ask you to do something. So you know, you know don't, but but come alongside them and what can I do to help you do your work? Our deacon body. Last time I was chairman, I assigned deacons to each staff person and fortunately that's kind of continued in our church, so that a group of deacons surrounded each pastor and helped them with whatever they Well, at a party for a minute there At a little balloon.
Speaker 1:See, austin's really excited about what Dr Kent said. I love it. He just liked it. And a bunch of balloons just flashed off. Those of y'all who are listening, we're having a party now. A bunch of blogey blows just flew across Austin Springs.
Speaker 2:That's how we're sorry, how we're sorry of an inward reality.
Speaker 3:But to land that plane just to try to get us to come alongside our pastors. I consider them the elders of our church and the leaders of our church and we're supposed to come alongside them and help them do the ministry of the word. You know, let them minister the word and prayer and then let us do the service, the acts of service within the church, and so just come alongside them and say, what can I do to help you? Yeah, I would add to that.
Speaker 4:We had a conversation with one of the pastors where we were in church and a great guy and and really sharp, and, uh, we're very close to him, and so he he shared with us that, um, you know, I don't remember if he put a number, but I'd say probably eight out of ten people who come in his office are adding something to his plate and only about two out of 10 are actually removing something. And so I would tell people to recognize that pastors are first and foremost human, that they have bills and marital struggles and sometimes they don't know what to do about their children, who are going through something difficult. They have health problems, just like everyone. So just to not treat them as though they are held to some standard, that you personally are not held to, that they're human and that if you could be one of those people who at least offers to remove something from their plate, that's what a partnership I think really looks like for them.
Speaker 4:And then, lastly, I talk about the bystander effect. You guys might be familiar with it, but it's a principle in psychology that if you're in a crowd of people and someone goes down and is hurt, an individual is less likely to step forward to help if you're in a crowd, and so be the one that steps up, that doesn't wait for someone else to step up and and feel the need that you see you be the first one to do it. Um, because that is something that apparently we just are naturally used to doing, I'm going to let someone else. Surely someone else is more qualified. I've never taught him class before. I don't uh, I don't know if I could drive the church fan. It's really big. Whatever your fear may be, be the one who steps up. I promise you they're. They're not going to put you in a position where you can't handle it.
Speaker 1:So that's what I would say, gentlemen, it's it's been an incredible privilege and joy and pleasure to have this conversation with you guys. To have this conversation with you guys. How can our listeners keep up with you?
Speaker 4:Give us some, some social media, some, some ways that they can keep up with what's going on at 1230. It's a great question that. So right now we're in the middle of, of getting our website up and running, but it should be very shortly and that'll be 1230.org, I believe, and other than that, that's about it.
Speaker 1:We're still working on it. We are so in front of what's happening, what the Lord is doing with you guys. We are not only cutting it, we are going to be leading it.
Speaker 4:We really lost. June 1st was our big loss. So we are we're just a few weeks into it, but god's doing some amazing things. Yeah, um and uh, but yeah, we're just super grateful for you all having saying I'll just tell you this.
Speaker 3:We will be calling on both of y'all in the future, okay, well, this is don't think this is a one-hit wonder. We're coming back to you, boy.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Anything y'all need. Man, we're there to help you guys out in any capacity. Love what you guys are doing. I see the need in it and I'm supportive all the way. Just let me know how I can help.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Glad to return the favor. Brothers, it's been a pleasure and a joy. For those of y'all who are listening or watching, please know that you can always subscribe to this podcast. It's easy. Just go out to Living Reconciled on any podcast app, whether it's Apple, whether it's Amazon, whatever podcast application that you use search on Living Reconciled and we're typically the first one that you find Living Reconciled by Mission Mississippi.
Speaker 1:Please go out, subscribe, like, share with friends, family, church members. We would very much appreciate it and share your feedback with us. We would love to hear how we can continue to grow and improve this podcast and how we can serve you and serve our community and our local churches better with this podcast. So please feel free to share your feedback Again, it's been a pleasure to spend time with the Kent men, james and Rodney Kent, and, on behalf of Dr Austin Hoyle, I am Brian Crawford, and we are signing off all saying God bless, god bless. Thanks for joining Living Reconciled. If you would like more information on how you can be a part of the ongoing work of helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured, please visit us online at missionmississippiorg or call us at 601-353-6477. Thanks again for listening.
